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I think it's people that are the problem. Car drivers will do the craziest things just to avoid being delayed by a few seconds and the well-being of anyone who

by dazc 4y ago

I think it's people that are the problem. Car drivers will do the craziest things just to avoid being delayed by a few seconds and the well-being of anyone who gets in their way is of little consequence. As a pedestrian, ironically, one can also witness cyclists behaving in a similarly reckless manner.

heretogetout 4y ago
> I think it's people that are the problem. Sure, and people respond to incentives and the environment around them. Or in this case the lack of incentives (e.g. lack of fines, imprisonment). People can provide solutions, too, like adding better division between car and bike lanes and removing street parking entirely (which would have many other benefits).
bediger4000 4y ago
Yes. Cars don't kill people, people kill people.
ornornor 4y ago
When there is no enforcement of road laws… chaos ensues. I lived in Ontario for a while. The easiest way to get away with murder there is to kill a cyclist with your car. “Didn’t see them, sun was in my eyes, woopsie” is usually a valid defense. All you get is a 500$ fine if the judge is really in a bad mood. In any case you walk away from it all. Speeding, running red lights, assault with a vehicle as a weapon etc aren’t even ticketed or brought in front of a judge anymore. And that’s been the case for years. Same goes for parking in the bike lane, it’s almost encouraged.
- heretogetout 4y ago
  Freakonomics published a podcast episode about this sort of thing: https://freakonomics.com/podcast/the-perfect-crime-2/ https://freakonomics.com/podcast/the-perfect-crime-2/ > I don’t actually want to kill anyone. And I don’t endorse the idea of wanting to kill anyone. But if I did, and I were looking for a way to do it and get away with it, how would I do it? I’d wait ‘til they were outside, walking down the street, maybe crossing at the light … and then I’d run them over in my car. Now, I’d have to make sure that no one knew I was trying to run them over. But they’d be dead and I, especially in New York City, would in all likelihood go scot-free.
sky-kedge0749 4y ago
Cyclists are much scarier to me as a pedestrian than cars are. Cars can be erratic but they stay on the road and, at worst, I can wait them out or otherwise almost always avoid them. On the other hand I've had cyclists zoom around me from behind on a sidewalk, surprise me from the front in the dark, or buzz me while I'm on a crosswalk and they're on the road and then they shout "sorryyyyy..." as they keep going. There's nothing I can do about that, it's just a roll of the dice.
- iancmceachern 4y ago
  Yeah but the consequences are wildly different. Even a low speed bus hit will likely end one's time on earth. Not the same for a bike. I mean it's still not ideal, but it's on a different order of accident.
  - sky-kedge0749 4y ago
    I hear you, but my actual experience is that car danger is avoidable. I can, if necessary, stand at a crosswalk and wait as long as necessary for the road to clear, or walk behind an idling car if I think it might accelerate into me, or keep walking until I reach a safer crossing. My few close calls have all been because I got sloppy. Buses especially are slow, easy to see and easy to predict. With bikes, there's not much I can do. I've had bikes pass me from behind at speed on the left on a sidewalk. If I had decided for whatever reason to step to the left at the wrong moment they'd have hit me full on. The worst street injury I've had was when a bike came at me from the front on a sidewalk in the dark from under some trees. By the time I realized it was a bike, it was too late, but luckily I lurched out of the way at the last second. I tripped over my feet and faceplanted at jogging speed but it could have been much worse.
    - iancmceachern 4y ago
      I've personally been biking around Northern California for a decade. I've also been walking around for the same time period. In that time: As a cyclist I've been: Hit by 2 busses. On the hood of 3 cars because they hit me Almost hit by a dozen more. As a pedestrian I've been almost hit by a cyclist a few times. Just once, have a car hit you and end up on the hood of a car and then let's talk.

by dazc 4y ago

heretogetout 4y ago

> I think it's people that are the problem. Sure, and people respond to incentives and the environment around them. Or in this case the lack of incentives (e.g. lack of fines, imprisonment). People can provide solutions, too, like adding better division between car and bike lanes and removing street parking entirely (which would have many other benefits).

bediger4000 4y ago

Yes. Cars don't kill people, people kill people.

ornornor 4y ago

When there is no enforcement of road laws… chaos ensues. I lived in Ontario for a while. The easiest way to get away with murder there is to kill a cyclist with your car. “Didn’t see them, sun was in my eyes, woopsie” is usually a valid defense. All you get is a 500$ fine if the judge is really in a bad mood. In any case you walk away from it all. Speeding, running red lights, assault with a vehicle as a weapon etc aren’t even ticketed or brought in front of a judge anymore. And that’s been the case for years. Same goes for parking in the bike lane, it’s almost encouraged.

heretogetout 4y ago
Freakonomics published a podcast episode about this sort of thing: https://freakonomics.com/podcast/the-perfect-crime-2/ https://freakonomics.com/podcast/the-perfect-crime-2/ > I don’t actually want to kill anyone. And I don’t endorse the idea of wanting to kill anyone. But if I did, and I were looking for a way to do it and get away with it, how would I do it? I’d wait ‘til they were outside, walking down the street, maybe crossing at the light … and then I’d run them over in my car. Now, I’d have to make sure that no one knew I was trying to run them over. But they’d be dead and I, especially in New York City, would in all likelihood go scot-free.

sky-kedge0749 4y ago

Cyclists are much scarier to me as a pedestrian than cars are. Cars can be erratic but they stay on the road and, at worst, I can wait them out or otherwise almost always avoid them. On the other hand I've had cyclists zoom around me from behind on a sidewalk, surprise me from the front in the dark, or buzz me while I'm on a crosswalk and they're on the road and then they shout "sorryyyyy..." as they keep going. There's nothing I can do about that, it's just a roll of the dice.

iancmceachern 4y ago
Yeah but the consequences are wildly different. Even a low speed bus hit will likely end one's time on earth. Not the same for a bike. I mean it's still not ideal, but it's on a different order of accident.
- sky-kedge0749 4y ago
  I hear you, but my actual experience is that car danger is avoidable. I can, if necessary, stand at a crosswalk and wait as long as necessary for the road to clear, or walk behind an idling car if I think it might accelerate into me, or keep walking until I reach a safer crossing. My few close calls have all been because I got sloppy. Buses especially are slow, easy to see and easy to predict. With bikes, there's not much I can do. I've had bikes pass me from behind at speed on the left on a sidewalk. If I had decided for whatever reason to step to the left at the wrong moment they'd have hit me full on. The worst street injury I've had was when a bike came at me from the front on a sidewalk in the dark from under some trees. By the time I realized it was a bike, it was too late, but luckily I lurched out of the way at the last second. I tripped over my feet and faceplanted at jogging speed but it could have been much worse.
  - iancmceachern 4y ago
    I've personally been biking around Northern California for a decade. I've also been walking around for the same time period. In that time: As a cyclist I've been: Hit by 2 busses. On the hood of 3 cars because they hit me Almost hit by a dozen more. As a pedestrian I've been almost hit by a cyclist a few times. Just once, have a car hit you and end up on the hood of a car and then let's talk.