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What's it currently doing with that money? I guess we could get rid of funding healthcare and trying to help people out of poverty so that a small number of peo

What's it currently doing with that money? I guess we could get rid of funding healthcare and trying to help people out of poverty so that a small number of people get to use a very expensive toy... You know what would be an awesome big science project that would immeasurably improve future people's lives? Sequencing all genes and using that data provide free embryo selection services to everyone who wants to be a parent. Would probably cost the same as that giant particle smasher and but unlike the giant ring it would pay for itself in a generation.

rendall 4y ago
Terrifying but intriguing idea. China's one-child policy led to widespread female infanticide and a generation of missing girls. What would prevent some similar unintended consequence in Europe?
- martin_a 4y ago
  > What would prevent some similar unintended consequence in Europe? We're not some fucked up dictatorship state?!?
  - dane-pgp 4y ago
    Yeah, we'd only kill the disabled and mediocre children standing in the way of our Utopia, nothing immoral like those awful Chinese people do.
    - martin_a 4y ago
      We're talking about embryos here. I think you're well aware about the ongoing discussions on when those are to be considered humans and when not. That's not an easy topic, obviously, but I'm fairly confident that we won't throw babys in the garbage can if we don't like them but try to make those decisions as early as possible.
      - telotortium 4y ago
        > I'm fairly confident that we won't throw babys in the garbage can if we don't like them Why not? What exactly is the limiting criterion? Sentience is the main criterion that people who want to argue for animal rights and yet support abortion use, and it's a pretty squishy criterion. Already Peter Singer supports veganism and effective altruism (i.e., rebranded utilitarianism), and yet is perfectly okay with both abortion and infanticide, at least until the child gets "sentience".
        timeon 4y ago
        Pro-life people are vegans now? It is good that they are consistent.
  - Georgelemental 4y ago
    > No, that could never happen here, are you crazy? We're a prosperous and civilized nation! - Every prosperous and civilized nation's last words
    - martin_a 4y ago
      I think the EU as a group of states seems to work quite well. Furthermore it seems like anti-democratic behaviour is getting punished now, too, if you look over to Poland. I'm quite optimistic that this will further improve.
      - Woodi 4y ago
        Dude, what is your definition of "democracy" ? Because your opinion about Poland state seems to be really, really brain-washed. At best. Democracy as in free election ? Perfect democracy here - one party won twice, other parties lost. You call it a problem ? Democracy as in free speech ? Dude ! Wake up ! In Poland is so much free speech that it's boarding with anarchy ! Eg. almost decade of opposition internally and internationally literally urges to harm their own country just to retake power - without any gov punishment or something. Mrs. Merkel ex-pet, Tusk, literally calls for purges, without any law procedures ! Freedom bordered with anarchy ! Maybe you are aware judges here act as caste and they do whatever they want. Law is twisted at will here. Do not saying all the time, just when they want it. And that judges are official* opposition of elected party ! Judges ! Acting politically ! You call that despotism ? Or too much freedom ? Do we have military state like in France ? No. Do we have censorship like in Germany ? No. Do we have problems with making government like Italy ? No. Do our PM resigned because of corruption and next PM promised silence and no more leeks like in GB ? No. You see ? It's oasis of peace and happiness here compared to rest of the EU ;) But tell me pls, what you have in mind about that "anti-democracy" in Poland ?
        _j5l3 4y ago
        > Furthermore it seems like anti-democratic behaviour is getting punished now, too, if you look over to Poland. They're saying anti-democratic behavior is being punished, which implies that Poland is pro-democracy.
  - rendall 4y ago
    I'm not sure what the form of government has to do with long-term, unintended consequences deriving from parents regularly choosing the characteristics of their unborn children. Would we have more or fewer: engineers, artists, short people, quirky people, homosexuals, religious people, etc?
sinenomine 4y ago
Embryo selection[1] is criminally underrated. It is a method to permanently enhance the genetic potential of a child of any given couple. It is already live and there are living children, the only remaining issue is scaling[2]. 1. https://www.gwern.net/Embryo-selection https://www.gwern.net/Embryo-selection 2. https://www.geneticsandsociety.org/biopolitical-times/first-polygenic-risk-score-baby https://www.geneticsandsociety.org/biopolitical-times/first-...
- otabdeveloper4 4y ago
  IVF carries risks of damaging the child's genome and so is fundamentally dysgenic.
PietdeVries 4y ago
Well... The US Defense budget for 2021 alone is 7 times the money needed to build a new LHC (705 billion [1] for the US defense in 2021). Germany will spend a similar 100 billion dollars on weapons in the coming years. So while 100 billion looks like an amazing amount of money, the military spends this in the blink of an eye and without the slightest promise of a RoI... [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_budget_of_the_United_States#Budget_for_FY2022 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_budget_of_the_United_...
- tomcatfish 4y ago
  I like having something to scale 100B to, but this is a silly argument. "Instead of cutting this program, just have every military cut funding at once" is not a very realistic path forwards, and we're not going to get the program funded on stuff like that. In the hypothetical universe we're in here, where we have to convince people now.
Georgelemental 4y ago
"Embryo selection"—is that a euphemism for "murdering any unborn child that doesn't have all the "right" genes? Because if so I think your definition of "people's lives" must be very different from mine.
- esarbe 4y ago
  No, it's just that; embryo selection. It's not an euphemism for what you wrote because an embryo is not a child and you cannot murder an embryo. From Wikipedia: "A child (plural children) is a human being between the stages of birth and puberty [...]" You are also conflating the abortion of an embryo with murder; only human persons can be murdered, embryos are not persons, therefore no murder. I sincerely ask you to cut down the polemics here on HN. It does not lead to fruitful (no pun intended) discussions.
  - Veen 4y ago
    I agree with your position, but it is no less polemical and ideological than the comment you are responding to. > an embryo is not a child and you cannot murder an embryo It is not obviously and axiomatically true that embryos are not human (I'm assuming the previous comment meant human and not child). Many people think that they are, which is the source of the disagreement. It probably is fruitless to have this conversation on HN, but you shouldn't just assert the opposing position as if it were settled when it is anything but.
    - esarbe 4y ago
      > but it is no less polemical and ideological than the comment you are responding to. I beg to differ. I don't think that using dictionary definitions to make ones arguments can be counted as polemic (as in; to use contentious rhetoric). I might be wrong though. > I'm assuming the previous comment meant human and not child No, I actually meant 'child'. An human embryo is - obviously - human. No discussion about that. A human embryo is not a child - the definition of that is also pretty much settled, I'd say. (At least from a scientific point of view.) But maybe I didn't clearly state my case, thus the misunderstanding. The point I'm making is as follows. Embryos are not children and thus they are not persons. Just as I cannot murder my toe (it might be human, but it's not a person) I cannot murder an embryo.
skirmish 4y ago
Yuval Noah Harari in "Homo Deus" [1], paraphrased: once all your neighbors are selecting their embryos, and you see their children healthier, higher IQ, excelling in school, how long do you think you will hold out? [1] https://www.amazon.com/dp/0062464345 https://www.amazon.com/dp/0062464345

rendall 4y ago

Terrifying but intriguing idea. China's one-child policy led to widespread female infanticide and a generation of missing girls. What would prevent some similar unintended consequence in Europe?

martin_a 4y ago
> What would prevent some similar unintended consequence in Europe? We're not some fucked up dictatorship state?!?
- dane-pgp 4y ago
  Yeah, we'd only kill the disabled and mediocre children standing in the way of our Utopia, nothing immoral like those awful Chinese people do.
  - martin_a 4y ago
    We're talking about embryos here. I think you're well aware about the ongoing discussions on when those are to be considered humans and when not. That's not an easy topic, obviously, but I'm fairly confident that we won't throw babys in the garbage can if we don't like them but try to make those decisions as early as possible.
    - telotortium 4y ago
      > I'm fairly confident that we won't throw babys in the garbage can if we don't like them Why not? What exactly is the limiting criterion? Sentience is the main criterion that people who want to argue for animal rights and yet support abortion use, and it's a pretty squishy criterion. Already Peter Singer supports veganism and effective altruism (i.e., rebranded utilitarianism), and yet is perfectly okay with both abortion and infanticide, at least until the child gets "sentience".
      - timeon 4y ago
        Pro-life people are vegans now? It is good that they are consistent.
- Georgelemental 4y ago
  > No, that could never happen here, are you crazy? We're a prosperous and civilized nation! - Every prosperous and civilized nation's last words
  - martin_a 4y ago
    I think the EU as a group of states seems to work quite well. Furthermore it seems like anti-democratic behaviour is getting punished now, too, if you look over to Poland. I'm quite optimistic that this will further improve.
    - Woodi 4y ago
      Dude, what is your definition of "democracy" ? Because your opinion about Poland state seems to be really, really brain-washed. At best. Democracy as in free election ? Perfect democracy here - one party won twice, other parties lost. You call it a problem ? Democracy as in free speech ? Dude ! Wake up ! In Poland is so much free speech that it's boarding with anarchy ! Eg. almost decade of opposition internally and internationally literally urges to harm their own country just to retake power - without any gov punishment or something. Mrs. Merkel ex-pet, Tusk, literally calls for purges, without any law procedures ! Freedom bordered with anarchy ! Maybe you are aware judges here act as caste and they do whatever they want. Law is twisted at will here. Do not saying all the time, just when they want it. And that judges are official* opposition of elected party ! Judges ! Acting politically ! You call that despotism ? Or too much freedom ? Do we have military state like in France ? No. Do we have censorship like in Germany ? No. Do we have problems with making government like Italy ? No. Do our PM resigned because of corruption and next PM promised silence and no more leeks like in GB ? No. You see ? It's oasis of peace and happiness here compared to rest of the EU ;) But tell me pls, what you have in mind about that "anti-democracy" in Poland ?
      - _j5l3 4y ago
        > Furthermore it seems like anti-democratic behaviour is getting punished now, too, if you look over to Poland. They're saying anti-democratic behavior is being punished, which implies that Poland is pro-democracy.
- rendall 4y ago
  I'm not sure what the form of government has to do with long-term, unintended consequences deriving from parents regularly choosing the characteristics of their unborn children. Would we have more or fewer: engineers, artists, short people, quirky people, homosexuals, religious people, etc?

sinenomine 4y ago

Embryo selection[1] is criminally underrated. It is a method to permanently enhance the genetic potential of a child of any given couple. It is already live and there are living children, the only remaining issue is scaling[2]. 1. https://www.gwern.net/Embryo-selection https://www.gwern.net/Embryo-selection 2. https://www.geneticsandsociety.org/biopolitical-times/first-polygenic-risk-score-baby https://www.geneticsandsociety.org/biopolitical-times/first-...

otabdeveloper4 4y ago
IVF carries risks of damaging the child's genome and so is fundamentally dysgenic.

PietdeVries 4y ago

Well... The US Defense budget for 2021 alone is 7 times the money needed to build a new LHC (705 billion [1] for the US defense in 2021). Germany will spend a similar 100 billion dollars on weapons in the coming years. So while 100 billion looks like an amazing amount of money, the military spends this in the blink of an eye and without the slightest promise of a RoI... [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_budget_of_the_United_States#Budget_for_FY2022 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_budget_of_the_United_...

tomcatfish 4y ago
I like having something to scale 100B to, but this is a silly argument. "Instead of cutting this program, just have every military cut funding at once" is not a very realistic path forwards, and we're not going to get the program funded on stuff like that. In the hypothetical universe we're in here, where we have to convince people now.

Georgelemental 4y ago

"Embryo selection"—is that a euphemism for "murdering any unborn child that doesn't have all the "right" genes? Because if so I think your definition of "people's lives" must be very different from mine.

esarbe 4y ago
No, it's just that; embryo selection. It's not an euphemism for what you wrote because an embryo is not a child and you cannot murder an embryo. From Wikipedia: "A child (plural children) is a human being between the stages of birth and puberty [...]" You are also conflating the abortion of an embryo with murder; only human persons can be murdered, embryos are not persons, therefore no murder. I sincerely ask you to cut down the polemics here on HN. It does not lead to fruitful (no pun intended) discussions.
- Veen 4y ago
  I agree with your position, but it is no less polemical and ideological than the comment you are responding to. > an embryo is not a child and you cannot murder an embryo It is not obviously and axiomatically true that embryos are not human (I'm assuming the previous comment meant human and not child). Many people think that they are, which is the source of the disagreement. It probably is fruitless to have this conversation on HN, but you shouldn't just assert the opposing position as if it were settled when it is anything but.
  - esarbe 4y ago
    > but it is no less polemical and ideological than the comment you are responding to. I beg to differ. I don't think that using dictionary definitions to make ones arguments can be counted as polemic (as in; to use contentious rhetoric). I might be wrong though. > I'm assuming the previous comment meant human and not child No, I actually meant 'child'. An human embryo is - obviously - human. No discussion about that. A human embryo is not a child - the definition of that is also pretty much settled, I'd say. (At least from a scientific point of view.) But maybe I didn't clearly state my case, thus the misunderstanding. The point I'm making is as follows. Embryos are not children and thus they are not persons. Just as I cannot murder my toe (it might be human, but it's not a person) I cannot murder an embryo.

skirmish 4y ago

Yuval Noah Harari in "Homo Deus" [1], paraphrased: once all your neighbors are selecting their embryos, and you see their children healthier, higher IQ, excelling in school, how long do you think you will hold out? [1] https://www.amazon.com/dp/0062464345 https://www.amazon.com/dp/0062464345