5 ms·

Why are the import taxes so high?

southerntofu 4y ago
Why are multinational companies who rely on slave labors from the mines to the factories selling for so high prices? (And how is it even legal?) That's a rhetorical question of course. As for the import taxes, i would guess because electronics are a luxury commodity in many places they are taxed as such. When not used as a luxury good for rich kids to play video games, they're used by industry which makes a lot of money so taxing them makes sense. Remember many places around the world still don't have reliable electricity (if any at all) or internet infrastructure. Some regions don't even want it as they'd rather preserve their eco-friendly way of life than contribute to the crazy show we've been offering them: first invent new problems (eg. electronics in cars or in agriculture) then sell solutions that will create more problems (eg. mining/refining/factory/landfill pollution). Most times low-tech is the best answer, and i personally would argue the world and the environment would be much better off if IT/electronics industry were highly regulated and taxed, and had strong obligations to make everything 100% recyclable and actually recycled (also: interoperable, repairable, etc).
- Jonanin 4y ago
  Wow, I have to say I strongly disagree with every single thing you said. Video games are a small niche in the universe of technology products. To use them as a justification for classifying all tech as luxury seems, well, extremely stupid and misguided. I’m surprised you don’t know, but the vast majority of businesses are small businesses with low profits, to act like they have plenty of extra money to spend on heavily taxed goods is ignorant at best. Tech is a productivity multiplier for many businesses, this is not really an arguable point as it is well studied. By the way, no one is forced to buy tech enabled products (despite the implication in your “crazy show”). People buy tech enabled products over others because they solve their problems better. And tech products are very low on the list of environmental issues in the world. If the tax was actually structured to promote eco friendly behavior in these countries it’d look wildly different. You seem to have an axe to grind here but nothing you claim really holds up to a bit of critical thinking. Not sure why an extreme tech pessimist is on HN anyways :)
  - southerntofu 4y ago
    > Video games are a small niche in the universe of technology products Sure it's a niche but not a small one. Just like cryptocurrency mining, it certainly drives shortages and high prices. My point is that only such specific applications require brand new hardware: for other usecases the second-hand market (which is dominant in the Global South due to tons of containers shipped full of 2nd-hand equipment leaving Global North shores) is more than enough. So in that sense it makes sense to tax the new hardware. Even without considering the actual applications, taxing new products is a good incentive to keep existing hardware running, which is much better for the environment (most pollution and energy used in the lifecycle of IT is in production). > By the way, no one is forced to buy tech enabled products That's definitely not true. Most people who want a car/truck/tractor want a reliable mechanical device, not a random piece of electronic junk with literally hundreds of microcontrollers who can all fail in mysterious ways and are hard to repair (if possible at all). The movement for the right to repair, which is strong amongst agriculture workers, would explain it better than me. Also, there's plenty of situations where people are forced into owning IT devices. In raising livestock at least here in France, there's mandatory regulations for chipping all animals and equipping your farm with high-tech. Many public services will not talk to you anymore unless you have an email and cell phone to give them. There's probably plenty of other examples from specific fields: i recall friends working in libraries and hospitals mentioning how their IT tools (imposed on them) are driving them crazy and degrading their quality of work. > And tech products are very low on the list of environmental issues in the world. That's definitely not true. Please take a look at the stats before making such a claim. If only by CO2 emissions, IT is a great contributor. If you add industrial pollution, IT is one of the worst industries you can think of due to requiring complex multinational supply chains for mining, refining, assembling hundreds of different materials, and failing to recycle billions of devices. > Not sure why an extreme tech pessimist is on HN anyways :) Oh i'm not a pessimist. I just think we should not obscure the dark side in what we do. I hope IT can become a field of human emancipation again (helping people accomplish tasks, instead of controlling them) and we can build 100%-recyclable computers as a priority (instead of aiming for more DPI or more GHz). I'm just really sad about the current state of our trade and how computing is used to both destroy the planet and ruin many people's lives :)
jamal-kumar 4y ago
No income tax
rchaud 4y ago
These are usually an attempt to: 1) Reduce the current account deficit (roughly defined as exports revenue minus import costs) 2) Incentivize multinationals to open local factories 3) Incentivize consumers to purchase from local brands instead of foreign competitors 4) Conserve foreign currency reserves for essential operations such as purchasing fuel, materials, or managing the currency value on foreign exchange markets
rowanajmarshall 4y ago
Lots of Latin America (especially Brazil) still have remnants of import-substitution policies [1], where tariffs on manufactured goods are high to encourage domestic industry. It's one reason Lua was created (in Brazil), because importing customised software from abroad was too expensive. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Import_substitution_industrialization#Latin_America https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Import_substitution_industrial...
guywithahat 4y ago
They tend to have very left-wing/socialist friendly governments, and instead of just building better products locally the governments have decided to just keep you from buying foreign things. Electronics are particularly hard to make and a desirable market, so they tend to have high tariffs or other limitations. Famously in Brazil they had a very inward facing economy (propped up mainly by the socialist candidate Lula, who was later arrested on fraud charges). But one of the things they did was build a Blackberry factory which was a big deal at the time, however the phones were always years out of date and generally terrible
- facorreia 4y ago
  Restrictions on importing computer hardware and software in Brazil were put in place by the extreme right wing military dictatorship.
  - tekknik 4y ago
    Well clearly one of you is wrong, but neither of you provided anything to prove your case. Which is it?
    - lbschenkel 4y ago
      https://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pol%C3%ADtica_Nacional_de_Inform%C3%A1tica https://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pol%C3%ADtica_Nacional_de_Info... - The law is from 1984 - Military dictatorship ended in 1985 - First election post-dictatorship happened in 1989 - Lula, the first left-wing president post-dictatorship, was elected for the first time in 2002
      - tekknik 4y ago
        There we go, thanks!
- lbschenkel 4y ago
  For the record, given that the parent poster believes that "later arrested on fraud charges" is relevant to the conversation, I feel compelled to mention some important details that were left out: - Brazilian Supreme Federal Court annulled all the cases brought against Lula because the judge overseeing those cases (Moro) was found to be biased and have violated due process [1][2][3]. Leaked conversations from Telegram revealed that the judge and the prosecution were actually working together and conspired with the explicit goal to put Lula in jail. - UN human rights commission also concluded that due process was violated [4]. - Lula was found guilty and arrested before the 2018 election. He was either leading the polls or a close 2nd. Judge Moro responsible for the sentence that blocked him from running and removed the main adversary for Bolsonaro was later offered the position of Minister of Justice for the Bolsonaro administration, which he accepted. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luiz_In%C3%A1cio_Lula_da_Silva#Operation_Car_Wash:_corruption_investigation_and_prosecution https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luiz_In%C3%A1cio_Lula_da_Silva... [2] https://www.reuters.com/world/americas/brazil-supreme-court-confirms-ruling-that-judge-was-biased-against-lula-2021-06-23/ https://www.reuters.com/world/americas/brazil-supreme-court-... [3] https://www.france24.com/en/live-news/20210625-brazil-judge-annuls-all-of-moro-s-cases-against-ex-president-lula https://www.france24.com/en/live-news/20210625-brazil-judge-... [4] https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2022/04/brazil-criminal-proceedings-against-former-president-lula-da-silva-violated https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2022/04/brazil-crimi...

Why are multinational companies who rely on slave labors from the mines to the factories selling for so high prices? (And how is it even legal?) That's a rhetorical question of course. As for the import taxes, i would guess because electronics are a luxury commodity in many places they are taxed as such. When not used as a luxury good for rich kids to play video games, they're used by industry which makes a lot of money so taxing them makes sense. Remember many places around the world still don't have reliable electricity (if any at all) or internet infrastructure. Some regions don't even want it as they'd rather preserve their eco-friendly way of life than contribute to the crazy show we've been offering them: first invent new problems (eg. electronics in cars or in agriculture) then sell solutions that will create more problems (eg. mining/refining/factory/landfill pollution). Most times low-tech is the best answer, and i personally would argue the world and the environment would be much better off if IT/electronics industry were highly regulated and taxed, and had strong obligations to make everything 100% recyclable and actually recycled (also: interoperable, repairable, etc).

Jonanin 4y ago
Wow, I have to say I strongly disagree with every single thing you said. Video games are a small niche in the universe of technology products. To use them as a justification for classifying all tech as luxury seems, well, extremely stupid and misguided. I’m surprised you don’t know, but the vast majority of businesses are small businesses with low profits, to act like they have plenty of extra money to spend on heavily taxed goods is ignorant at best. Tech is a productivity multiplier for many businesses, this is not really an arguable point as it is well studied. By the way, no one is forced to buy tech enabled products (despite the implication in your “crazy show”). People buy tech enabled products over others because they solve their problems better. And tech products are very low on the list of environmental issues in the world. If the tax was actually structured to promote eco friendly behavior in these countries it’d look wildly different. You seem to have an axe to grind here but nothing you claim really holds up to a bit of critical thinking. Not sure why an extreme tech pessimist is on HN anyways :)
- southerntofu 4y ago
  > Video games are a small niche in the universe of technology products Sure it's a niche but not a small one. Just like cryptocurrency mining, it certainly drives shortages and high prices. My point is that only such specific applications require brand new hardware: for other usecases the second-hand market (which is dominant in the Global South due to tons of containers shipped full of 2nd-hand equipment leaving Global North shores) is more than enough. So in that sense it makes sense to tax the new hardware. Even without considering the actual applications, taxing new products is a good incentive to keep existing hardware running, which is much better for the environment (most pollution and energy used in the lifecycle of IT is in production). > By the way, no one is forced to buy tech enabled products That's definitely not true. Most people who want a car/truck/tractor want a reliable mechanical device, not a random piece of electronic junk with literally hundreds of microcontrollers who can all fail in mysterious ways and are hard to repair (if possible at all). The movement for the right to repair, which is strong amongst agriculture workers, would explain it better than me. Also, there's plenty of situations where people are forced into owning IT devices. In raising livestock at least here in France, there's mandatory regulations for chipping all animals and equipping your farm with high-tech. Many public services will not talk to you anymore unless you have an email and cell phone to give them. There's probably plenty of other examples from specific fields: i recall friends working in libraries and hospitals mentioning how their IT tools (imposed on them) are driving them crazy and degrading their quality of work. > And tech products are very low on the list of environmental issues in the world. That's definitely not true. Please take a look at the stats before making such a claim. If only by CO2 emissions, IT is a great contributor. If you add industrial pollution, IT is one of the worst industries you can think of due to requiring complex multinational supply chains for mining, refining, assembling hundreds of different materials, and failing to recycle billions of devices. > Not sure why an extreme tech pessimist is on HN anyways :) Oh i'm not a pessimist. I just think we should not obscure the dark side in what we do. I hope IT can become a field of human emancipation again (helping people accomplish tasks, instead of controlling them) and we can build 100%-recyclable computers as a priority (instead of aiming for more DPI or more GHz). I'm just really sad about the current state of our trade and how computing is used to both destroy the planet and ruin many people's lives :)

jamal-kumar 4y ago

No income tax

rchaud 4y ago

These are usually an attempt to: 1) Reduce the current account deficit (roughly defined as exports revenue minus import costs) 2) Incentivize multinationals to open local factories 3) Incentivize consumers to purchase from local brands instead of foreign competitors 4) Conserve foreign currency reserves for essential operations such as purchasing fuel, materials, or managing the currency value on foreign exchange markets

rowanajmarshall 4y ago

Lots of Latin America (especially Brazil) still have remnants of import-substitution policies [1], where tariffs on manufactured goods are high to encourage domestic industry. It's one reason Lua was created (in Brazil), because importing customised software from abroad was too expensive. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Import_substitution_industrialization#Latin_America https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Import_substitution_industrial...

guywithahat 4y ago

They tend to have very left-wing/socialist friendly governments, and instead of just building better products locally the governments have decided to just keep you from buying foreign things. Electronics are particularly hard to make and a desirable market, so they tend to have high tariffs or other limitations. Famously in Brazil they had a very inward facing economy (propped up mainly by the socialist candidate Lula, who was later arrested on fraud charges). But one of the things they did was build a Blackberry factory which was a big deal at the time, however the phones were always years out of date and generally terrible

facorreia 4y ago
Restrictions on importing computer hardware and software in Brazil were put in place by the extreme right wing military dictatorship.
- tekknik 4y ago
  Well clearly one of you is wrong, but neither of you provided anything to prove your case. Which is it?
  - lbschenkel 4y ago
    https://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pol%C3%ADtica_Nacional_de_Inform%C3%A1tica https://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pol%C3%ADtica_Nacional_de_Info... - The law is from 1984 - Military dictatorship ended in 1985 - First election post-dictatorship happened in 1989 - Lula, the first left-wing president post-dictatorship, was elected for the first time in 2002
    - tekknik 4y ago
      There we go, thanks!
lbschenkel 4y ago
For the record, given that the parent poster believes that "later arrested on fraud charges" is relevant to the conversation, I feel compelled to mention some important details that were left out: - Brazilian Supreme Federal Court annulled all the cases brought against Lula because the judge overseeing those cases (Moro) was found to be biased and have violated due process [1][2][3]. Leaked conversations from Telegram revealed that the judge and the prosecution were actually working together and conspired with the explicit goal to put Lula in jail. - UN human rights commission also concluded that due process was violated [4]. - Lula was found guilty and arrested before the 2018 election. He was either leading the polls or a close 2nd. Judge Moro responsible for the sentence that blocked him from running and removed the main adversary for Bolsonaro was later offered the position of Minister of Justice for the Bolsonaro administration, which he accepted. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luiz_In%C3%A1cio_Lula_da_Silva#Operation_Car_Wash:_corruption_investigation_and_prosecution https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luiz_In%C3%A1cio_Lula_da_Silva... [2] https://www.reuters.com/world/americas/brazil-supreme-court-confirms-ruling-that-judge-was-biased-against-lula-2021-06-23/ https://www.reuters.com/world/americas/brazil-supreme-court-... [3] https://www.france24.com/en/live-news/20210625-brazil-judge-annuls-all-of-moro-s-cases-against-ex-president-lula https://www.france24.com/en/live-news/20210625-brazil-judge-... [4] https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2022/04/brazil-criminal-proceedings-against-former-president-lula-da-silva-violated https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2022/04/brazil-crimi...