5 ms·

Pretty surprising to me if others agree, if you lease a car you dont own that car, do you?

by mkmk3 4y ago

permo-w 4y ago
my parents lease a car. I would regard it as their car, and possibly go so far as to say they own it, if I wasn't thinking too hard about it, and maybe even if I was. it's in their possession.
- em1sar 4y ago
  that's a ridiculous cope, they rent the car they do not own it, the bank owns it
  - southerntofu 4y ago
    By this standard, nobody owns anything: as long as you pay property taxes, you're just renting from the State. I don't entirely disagree with this interpretation: as others have pointed out, whatever you "own" can be quickly expropriated by local powers to build a highway, airport, stadium...
    - psychoslave 4y ago
      And local powers can be dismantled, or see part of its territory being annexed by an other sovereign power. As we say, nothing lasts forever. In that regard, ownership is more like "sizing the window in a large enough shape so that all stakeholders are convinced that it will never be required to put special attention on it again, despite ineluctable changes". Maybe privileges, responsibilities and liability are less delusional terms for that matter.
    - hgomersall 4y ago
      Moreover, the state protects what you "own" from being appropriated by the person with the bigger club. "Private property" very much depends on public goodwill.
- gnuj3 4y ago
  If they will own it at the end of the payments (what we call Hire Purchase in UK) then yes, I’d regard it as their car. If they making monthly payments over certain amount of time and after that time they need to give the car back then no - they just renting it.
- logifail 4y ago
  > I would regard it as their car, and possibly go so far as to say they own it, if I wasn't thinking too hard about it, and maybe even if I was. it's in their possession. Thought experiment: If they were to damage their vehicle (but assuming it's still legal to drive), who gets to decide whether it should - or indeed must - be repaired? Your parents, or someone else? (Full disclosure: I recently added some scratches to my wife's car after a concrete pillar jumped out in front of me in an underground car park. I don't need to involve the insurance company, I don't need to talk to any bank or finance company, I can simply go to any local independent provider and have the car repaired. Or indeed not, if I decide it's not worth it.)
  - technothrasher 4y ago
    > I don't need to involve the insurance company, I don't need to talk to any bank or finance company, I can simply go to any local independent provider and have the car repaired. Or indeed not, if I decide it's not worth it. This is all true for a leased car as well. The only difference is that when you turn the leased car in at the end of the term, you may get charged by the leasing company for any damages that are currently on the car.
    - logifail 4y ago
      > This is all true for a leased car as well Almost, except that: > The only difference is that when you turn the leased car in at the end of the term [...] Yes, correct, and exactly what I was alluding to: the significant difference between owning and leasing! EDIT: Maybe I'm missing something (we've only ever owned vehicles outright, never leased). Q: If you are leasing a car and you have a (let's say fairly serious) crash, are you allowed to have it repaired in the manner of your choice, even at a third-party repair shop, and not even be obliged to inform the leasing company about the accident and/or the repairs?
- rapnie 4y ago
  If they owned it, they might hand-paint it, or saw off the roof and make it a cabrio, without consequences. Can they?
  - hypertele-Xii 4y ago
    Even if they "fully owned" it, they still couldn't paint or mod it without consequences. Vehicles must abide to certain regulations or they cannot be driven on public roads. Can't paint a stop-sign on it, for example. Can't saw off the steering wheel.
furyg3 4y ago
Depends on how you think about it. You could say that you 'own' it but you have obligations (lease payments) or it will be seized. The same is true for property you 'own', if you don't pay your taxes or fail to manage the property, it will be seized.
- em1sar 4y ago
  not paying taxes on your property is different from not owning something and missing a recurring payment.
  - sgjohnson 4y ago
    Not really. With property taxes, you lease the title to “your” land from the government.
    - happymellon 4y ago
      Except that if you don't pay your taxes, they might not take your house. If you fail to pay your lease then they will reclaim that particular item.
      - judge2020 4y ago
        > if you don't pay your taxes, they might not take your house. At least in the states they absolutely do. It starts off as a tax lien which is then sold to whoever wants to buy it, so that the private sector handles actually reclaiming the land and re-listing it on the stock market.
        happymellon 4y ago
        That is just how US law is structured though. They could just as easily say that they will reclaim the loss through recovery of your assets or by weight in blood. https://www.bristol.gov.uk/council-tax/what-happens-if-you-dont-pay https://www.bristol.gov.uk/council-tax/what-happens-if-you-d... In the UK the process is different, which just shows that they don't have to take your house to reclaim outstanding taxes. The point is that the government has options, if the property recovery value doesn't cover the missing taxes then I'm sure they will recover through other avenues. If you lease a car and don't pay, they can really only reclaim the car.
2Gkashmiri 4y ago
leases are of two kinds technically. operating and finance lease. one gives you ownership at the start, the second one merely "rents" you the thing
NoboruWataya 4y ago
Maybe not in common parlance, but if you lease a building for hundreds or thousands of years at a nominal rent, it's difficult to distinguish that from what you might call "true" ownership. Believe it or not that is how a lot of property is owned in some common law jurisdictions. A well-known example is Guinness's famous brewery in Dublin, which was leased in 1759 for 9,000 years at £45 per year. Long-lease ownership is particularly common for apartments, where it is important that the owner of one apartment does not do anything to impair the structural integrity of other apartments or the building as a whole, and there may also be a common area that apartment owners are obliged to maintain. This means that you must impose certain covenants on the apartment owners and traditionally the only way to do that was through leasehold ownership. Ownership is a very fuzzy concept and it is interesting to think about what are its hallmarks. There is no single correct answer, but I think a lot of lawyers tend to think of ownership as being a right "in rem" (ie, a right in respect of a thing, which is theoretically enforceable against any third party) rather than a right "in personam" (ie, a right against a particular person, which is generally not enforceable against third parties). In that regard, a leasehold is a right in rem whereas, for example, a licence to dwell on a property for a period of time would be a right in personam.

Pretty surprising to me if others agree, if you lease a car you dont own that car, do you?

by mkmk3 4y ago

Pretty surprising to me if others agree, if you lease a car you dont own that car, do you?

my parents lease a car. I would regard it as their car, and possibly go so far as to say they own it, if I wasn't thinking too hard about it, and maybe even if I was. it's in their possession.

em1sar 4y ago
that's a ridiculous cope, they rent the car they do not own it, the bank owns it
- southerntofu 4y ago
  By this standard, nobody owns anything: as long as you pay property taxes, you're just renting from the State. I don't entirely disagree with this interpretation: as others have pointed out, whatever you "own" can be quickly expropriated by local powers to build a highway, airport, stadium...
  - psychoslave 4y ago
    And local powers can be dismantled, or see part of its territory being annexed by an other sovereign power. As we say, nothing lasts forever. In that regard, ownership is more like "sizing the window in a large enough shape so that all stakeholders are convinced that it will never be required to put special attention on it again, despite ineluctable changes". Maybe privileges, responsibilities and liability are less delusional terms for that matter.
  - hgomersall 4y ago
    Moreover, the state protects what you "own" from being appropriated by the person with the bigger club. "Private property" very much depends on public goodwill.
gnuj3 4y ago
If they will own it at the end of the payments (what we call Hire Purchase in UK) then yes, I’d regard it as their car. If they making monthly payments over certain amount of time and after that time they need to give the car back then no - they just renting it.
logifail 4y ago
> I would regard it as their car, and possibly go so far as to say they own it, if I wasn't thinking too hard about it, and maybe even if I was. it's in their possession. Thought experiment: If they were to damage their vehicle (but assuming it's still legal to drive), who gets to decide whether it should - or indeed must - be repaired? Your parents, or someone else? (Full disclosure: I recently added some scratches to my wife's car after a concrete pillar jumped out in front of me in an underground car park. I don't need to involve the insurance company, I don't need to talk to any bank or finance company, I can simply go to any local independent provider and have the car repaired. Or indeed not, if I decide it's not worth it.)
- technothrasher 4y ago
  > I don't need to involve the insurance company, I don't need to talk to any bank or finance company, I can simply go to any local independent provider and have the car repaired. Or indeed not, if I decide it's not worth it. This is all true for a leased car as well. The only difference is that when you turn the leased car in at the end of the term, you may get charged by the leasing company for any damages that are currently on the car.
  - logifail 4y ago
    > This is all true for a leased car as well Almost, except that: > The only difference is that when you turn the leased car in at the end of the term [...] Yes, correct, and exactly what I was alluding to: the significant difference between owning and leasing! EDIT: Maybe I'm missing something (we've only ever owned vehicles outright, never leased). Q: If you are leasing a car and you have a (let's say fairly serious) crash, are you allowed to have it repaired in the manner of your choice, even at a third-party repair shop, and not even be obliged to inform the leasing company about the accident and/or the repairs?
rapnie 4y ago
If they owned it, they might hand-paint it, or saw off the roof and make it a cabrio, without consequences. Can they?
- hypertele-Xii 4y ago
  Even if they "fully owned" it, they still couldn't paint or mod it without consequences. Vehicles must abide to certain regulations or they cannot be driven on public roads. Can't paint a stop-sign on it, for example. Can't saw off the steering wheel.

furyg3 4y ago

Depends on how you think about it. You could say that you 'own' it but you have obligations (lease payments) or it will be seized. The same is true for property you 'own', if you don't pay your taxes or fail to manage the property, it will be seized.

em1sar 4y ago
not paying taxes on your property is different from not owning something and missing a recurring payment.
- sgjohnson 4y ago
  Not really. With property taxes, you lease the title to “your” land from the government.
  - happymellon 4y ago
    Except that if you don't pay your taxes, they might not take your house. If you fail to pay your lease then they will reclaim that particular item.
    - judge2020 4y ago
      > if you don't pay your taxes, they might not take your house. At least in the states they absolutely do. It starts off as a tax lien which is then sold to whoever wants to buy it, so that the private sector handles actually reclaiming the land and re-listing it on the stock market.
      - happymellon 4y ago
        That is just how US law is structured though. They could just as easily say that they will reclaim the loss through recovery of your assets or by weight in blood. https://www.bristol.gov.uk/council-tax/what-happens-if-you-dont-pay https://www.bristol.gov.uk/council-tax/what-happens-if-you-d... In the UK the process is different, which just shows that they don't have to take your house to reclaim outstanding taxes. The point is that the government has options, if the property recovery value doesn't cover the missing taxes then I'm sure they will recover through other avenues. If you lease a car and don't pay, they can really only reclaim the car.

2Gkashmiri 4y ago

leases are of two kinds technically. operating and finance lease. one gives you ownership at the start, the second one merely "rents" you the thing

NoboruWataya 4y ago

Maybe not in common parlance, but if you lease a building for hundreds or thousands of years at a nominal rent, it's difficult to distinguish that from what you might call "true" ownership. Believe it or not that is how a lot of property is owned in some common law jurisdictions. A well-known example is Guinness's famous brewery in Dublin, which was leased in 1759 for 9,000 years at £45 per year. Long-lease ownership is particularly common for apartments, where it is important that the owner of one apartment does not do anything to impair the structural integrity of other apartments or the building as a whole, and there may also be a common area that apartment owners are obliged to maintain. This means that you must impose certain covenants on the apartment owners and traditionally the only way to do that was through leasehold ownership. Ownership is a very fuzzy concept and it is interesting to think about what are its hallmarks. There is no single correct answer, but I think a lot of lawyers tend to think of ownership as being a right "in rem" (ie, a right in respect of a thing, which is theoretically enforceable against any third party) rather than a right "in personam" (ie, a right against a particular person, which is generally not enforceable against third parties). In that regard, a leasehold is a right in rem whereas, for example, a licence to dwell on a property for a period of time would be a right in personam.