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If Apple only made better products than their competitors, a case could be made, sure. The problem is things like the 30% shake out on transactions in other app

If Apple only made better products than their competitors, a case could be made, sure. The problem is things like the 30% shake out on transactions in other apps.

dijit 4y ago
Why do you force me to defend Apple? Trotting the 30% tax as an Apple exclusive problem is extremely disengenuous. Sony, Microsoft and Valve also charge 30% (and have draconian agreements that are even worse than apples). It’s like Foxxcon all over again; when Apple does the same as everyone else, suddenly it’s a pariah. (For context I’m talking about the suicides at Foxconn due to the abhorrent working conditions, despite the fact that nearly every large OEM and board maker used them: Apple got the most shit). Sometimes I think the media might have a bit of bias against Apple for some reason. Not that the criticism isn’t justified, but it’s definitely not levied even handedly.
- Andrew_nenakhov 4y ago
  Similar as they may appear, the comparison between Steam and Apple's AppStore is disingenuous.Valve doesn't prohibit developers from selling the app directly to customers and installing the app on their devices, bypassing the middleman. Apple absolutely locks down iOS devices and direct installation of anything is impossible (testflight and MDM options do not count). This makes these two appstores completely incomparable. Enrolling in one is voluntary, and is done by developers because it is beneficial to them, another one is extortion.
  - dijit 4y ago
    As far as I understand (I was only working in the same building as uplay/Ubsioft connect) there were rules about payment processing (ie; all games downloaded through steam have to use the steam payments api: this is all I can find on the matter at a glance: https://steamcommunity.com/discussions/forum/0/1755779919109939706/ https://steamcommunity.com/discussions/forum/0/1755779919109...) Second; while you can sell your program in other places, you may not charge differently than steam. Which makes a lot of sense but is quite hard to grapple with in reality. I think there are cheeky “letter of the law” ways of working around this but obviously Valve don’t want that and then look for other reasons to just drop your entire catalog at random (this was not done by Ubisoft, despite the title and article claiming that: https://gamerant.com/ubisoft-remove-game-steam/ https://gamerant.com/ubisoft-remove-game-steam/) After all; why go outside of steam if it’s not cheaper?
    - KindOne 4y ago
      Some people don't like Steam since its proprietary. I own around 200 games on Steam and almost all of them have Steam's DRM that prevents me from running the game without being logged into Steam. https://partner.steamgames.com/doc/features/drm https://partner.steamgames.com/doc/features/drm Some games can be bought on Steam, GoG (DRM-free), and/or their website. Example: https://www.kerbalspaceprogram.com/games-kerbal-space-program https://www.kerbalspaceprogram.com/games-kerbal-space-progra... https://www.gog.com/en/game/kerbal_space_program https://www.gog.com/en/game/kerbal_space_program https://store.steampowered.com/app/220200/Kerbal_Space_Program/ https://store.steampowered.com/app/220200/Kerbal_Space_Progr...
- blablablerg 4y ago
  Others doing the same doesn't justify the practice. I am calling out Apple right now because this discussion is about Apple, not because I just want to blame Apple and give a pass to the others. What is this argument, is Apple now the 12 year old 'bad' kid in class who gets blamed for everything? Should I be considerate of its feelings? Anyway, Google still allows alternative app stores on the platform like F-droid that is a major difference. Since Apple has locked down the platform, they are the price setters: they decide for you that 30% is fair. Seems extortionate to me.
  - dijit 4y ago
    I’m more pointing out that as far as “platform costs” go, Apple is in-line with its contemporaries. In fact it’s likely by virtue of the platform being so closed that the rate is so high (as my examples are console platforms which also seek to be hermetically sealed environments), so trotting out f-droid as a refutation does little. Maybe I’m numb to this from working in games; try making a game and avoiding the 30% tax; even on a free and open platform like PC, outside of Epic and some home-grown launchers you’re going to be paying 30%. For consoles; forget about it, that’s the price. It’s pay to play, and if you don’t want to pay then… don’t, nobody puts a gun to your head any forces you to support the iPhone. At least you have an alternative platform to target that is cheaper (Android). Where as I got death threats when we put The Division 2 on Epic Games; the public opinion was not a good one: https://reddit.com/r/thedivision/comments/ae8vnd/_/ednd9fr/?context=1 https://reddit.com/r/thedivision/comments/ae8vnd/_/ednd9fr/?...
    - taylodl 4y ago
      >> It’s pay to play, and if you don’t want to pay then… don’t, nobody puts a gun to your head any forces you to support the iPhone Right? If you don't like their monkeys then don't join their circus! Apple is spending billions of dollars to create their iPhone market that these people then want to tap into and profit from for free! Apple doesn't get paid unless you get paid, distribute your app for free and you don't have to pay Apple anything. Oh, you want to make money? Then you're going to have to pay for that! If these people don't like it then I suggest they try distributing their software via Walmart, Gamestop, or Staples. Wait, what? You can't access their stores for free to sell your stuff! Say it ain't so! Frankly I'm tired of this juvenile discussion. These people obviously have no clue as to how retail works and can't see that Apple has actually cut them a hell of a deal! A better deal than you're going to get distributing any product via a traditional retail channel.
- manigandham 4y ago
  The problem isn't the tax, it's that there is no way around it. Let people install alternative app stores and every single issue is resolved.
judge2020 4y ago
If Apple didn’t generate a sizable profit from the App Store, would they really be bothered to keep making changes to the silicon and APIs that make developers apps run faster? It’s a genuine question; a good chunk of the A15 is dedicated to machine learning and Apple makes available a wide array of new APIs that almost seem pre-baked, eg this[0], and yet all a single iOS developer pays for in the $100 yearly fee is maybe 1 hour of an engineer’s time. Apple may make a large chunk of profit from the iPhone (which only comes from scale, mind you; 1 new iPhone would cost a million dollars to make but 100M copies of a new iPhones only costs ~$40B to make), but the solution can’t be “App Store revenue drops 99%” (which would certainly happen; why would anyone stay with IAP and not switch to PayPal or stripe for a <5% fee?). 0: https://developer.apple.com/wwdc22/10127 https://developer.apple.com/wwdc22/10127
- blablablerg 4y ago
  That is the argument most monopolies make. Look at all the good things I am doing! I might not do them if I make less money! (While swimming in money and spending a fraction to R&D) Same can be said about the customers: they could've spend the 30% on things that are better for their life.
- kaba0 4y ago
  The problem is not AppStore-downloaded app using AppStore for IAP, it is that I am not able to download anything I would deem necessary on my very own general purpose device if Apple deems it not a good fit for their platform. For all I care force IAPs to go through their servers for 30%, the majority of the users will still use it just fine. Just put a scary looking, click 35 times on this hidden menu option to allow proper sideloading, not this 3 apps for 7 days bullshit.

If Apple only made better products than their competitors, a case could be made, sure. The problem is things like the 30% shake out on transactions in other apps.

dijit 4y ago

Why do you force me to defend Apple? Trotting the 30% tax as an Apple exclusive problem is extremely disengenuous. Sony, Microsoft and Valve also charge 30% (and have draconian agreements that are even worse than apples). It’s like Foxxcon all over again; when Apple does the same as everyone else, suddenly it’s a pariah. (For context I’m talking about the suicides at Foxconn due to the abhorrent working conditions, despite the fact that nearly every large OEM and board maker used them: Apple got the most shit). Sometimes I think the media might have a bit of bias against Apple for some reason. Not that the criticism isn’t justified, but it’s definitely not levied even handedly.

Andrew_nenakhov 4y ago
Similar as they may appear, the comparison between Steam and Apple's AppStore is disingenuous.Valve doesn't prohibit developers from selling the app directly to customers and installing the app on their devices, bypassing the middleman. Apple absolutely locks down iOS devices and direct installation of anything is impossible (testflight and MDM options do not count). This makes these two appstores completely incomparable. Enrolling in one is voluntary, and is done by developers because it is beneficial to them, another one is extortion.
- dijit 4y ago
  As far as I understand (I was only working in the same building as uplay/Ubsioft connect) there were rules about payment processing (ie; all games downloaded through steam have to use the steam payments api: this is all I can find on the matter at a glance: https://steamcommunity.com/discussions/forum/0/1755779919109939706/ https://steamcommunity.com/discussions/forum/0/1755779919109...) Second; while you can sell your program in other places, you may not charge differently than steam. Which makes a lot of sense but is quite hard to grapple with in reality. I think there are cheeky “letter of the law” ways of working around this but obviously Valve don’t want that and then look for other reasons to just drop your entire catalog at random (this was not done by Ubisoft, despite the title and article claiming that: https://gamerant.com/ubisoft-remove-game-steam/ https://gamerant.com/ubisoft-remove-game-steam/) After all; why go outside of steam if it’s not cheaper?
  - KindOne 4y ago
    Some people don't like Steam since its proprietary. I own around 200 games on Steam and almost all of them have Steam's DRM that prevents me from running the game without being logged into Steam. https://partner.steamgames.com/doc/features/drm https://partner.steamgames.com/doc/features/drm Some games can be bought on Steam, GoG (DRM-free), and/or their website. Example: https://www.kerbalspaceprogram.com/games-kerbal-space-program https://www.kerbalspaceprogram.com/games-kerbal-space-progra... https://www.gog.com/en/game/kerbal_space_program https://www.gog.com/en/game/kerbal_space_program https://store.steampowered.com/app/220200/Kerbal_Space_Program/ https://store.steampowered.com/app/220200/Kerbal_Space_Progr...
blablablerg 4y ago
Others doing the same doesn't justify the practice. I am calling out Apple right now because this discussion is about Apple, not because I just want to blame Apple and give a pass to the others. What is this argument, is Apple now the 12 year old 'bad' kid in class who gets blamed for everything? Should I be considerate of its feelings? Anyway, Google still allows alternative app stores on the platform like F-droid that is a major difference. Since Apple has locked down the platform, they are the price setters: they decide for you that 30% is fair. Seems extortionate to me.
- dijit 4y ago
  I’m more pointing out that as far as “platform costs” go, Apple is in-line with its contemporaries. In fact it’s likely by virtue of the platform being so closed that the rate is so high (as my examples are console platforms which also seek to be hermetically sealed environments), so trotting out f-droid as a refutation does little. Maybe I’m numb to this from working in games; try making a game and avoiding the 30% tax; even on a free and open platform like PC, outside of Epic and some home-grown launchers you’re going to be paying 30%. For consoles; forget about it, that’s the price. It’s pay to play, and if you don’t want to pay then… don’t, nobody puts a gun to your head any forces you to support the iPhone. At least you have an alternative platform to target that is cheaper (Android). Where as I got death threats when we put The Division 2 on Epic Games; the public opinion was not a good one: https://reddit.com/r/thedivision/comments/ae8vnd/_/ednd9fr/?context=1 https://reddit.com/r/thedivision/comments/ae8vnd/_/ednd9fr/?...
  - taylodl 4y ago
    >> It’s pay to play, and if you don’t want to pay then… don’t, nobody puts a gun to your head any forces you to support the iPhone Right? If you don't like their monkeys then don't join their circus! Apple is spending billions of dollars to create their iPhone market that these people then want to tap into and profit from for free! Apple doesn't get paid unless you get paid, distribute your app for free and you don't have to pay Apple anything. Oh, you want to make money? Then you're going to have to pay for that! If these people don't like it then I suggest they try distributing their software via Walmart, Gamestop, or Staples. Wait, what? You can't access their stores for free to sell your stuff! Say it ain't so! Frankly I'm tired of this juvenile discussion. These people obviously have no clue as to how retail works and can't see that Apple has actually cut them a hell of a deal! A better deal than you're going to get distributing any product via a traditional retail channel.
manigandham 4y ago
The problem isn't the tax, it's that there is no way around it. Let people install alternative app stores and every single issue is resolved.

judge2020 4y ago

If Apple didn’t generate a sizable profit from the App Store, would they really be bothered to keep making changes to the silicon and APIs that make developers apps run faster? It’s a genuine question; a good chunk of the A15 is dedicated to machine learning and Apple makes available a wide array of new APIs that almost seem pre-baked, eg this[0], and yet all a single iOS developer pays for in the $100 yearly fee is maybe 1 hour of an engineer’s time. Apple may make a large chunk of profit from the iPhone (which only comes from scale, mind you; 1 new iPhone would cost a million dollars to make but 100M copies of a new iPhones only costs ~$40B to make), but the solution can’t be “App Store revenue drops 99%” (which would certainly happen; why would anyone stay with IAP and not switch to PayPal or stripe for a <5% fee?). 0: https://developer.apple.com/wwdc22/10127 https://developer.apple.com/wwdc22/10127

blablablerg 4y ago
That is the argument most monopolies make. Look at all the good things I am doing! I might not do them if I make less money! (While swimming in money and spending a fraction to R&D) Same can be said about the customers: they could've spend the 30% on things that are better for their life.
kaba0 4y ago
The problem is not AppStore-downloaded app using AppStore for IAP, it is that I am not able to download anything I would deem necessary on my very own general purpose device if Apple deems it not a good fit for their platform. For all I care force IAPs to go through their servers for 30%, the majority of the users will still use it just fine. Just put a scary looking, click 35 times on this hidden menu option to allow proper sideloading, not this 3 apps for 7 days bullshit.