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I understand the argument of being locked to a single rendering engine (WebKit), but there is just so much to a browser than a rendering engine. Chrome and Fire

I understand the argument of being locked to a single rendering engine (WebKit), but there is just so much to a browser than a rendering engine. Chrome and Firefox on iOS both have the opportunity for their own sync, their own bookmarks/history/settings implementation, their own telemetry, choice to use native controls or not, to decide whether to block ads, trackers and respect user privacy - that is all at discretion of the actual browser app. The role of WebKit is just to render a web page - a modern browser is so much more than that. Now, would allowing other rendering engines be better for iOS? I ultimately think it would, but also can understand Apple's stance of wanting to enforce the most performant, secure and energy efficient rendering engine on something as sensitive to these parameters as a mobile phone.

rektide 4y ago
> The role of WebKit is just to render a web page - a modern browser is so much more than that. The roll of the webview is more than webkit rendering. It encompasses the javascript engine, all it's capabilities, it includes many many many of the platform APIs. I'd be interested to hear if Chrome or Firefox or any other iOS browsers implement any web apis on iOS that aren't present in Safari, but I doubt it, and I'm not sure whether that's a hard web view limitation. I think we're trying a little too actively to promote a sense of significant diversity here, where there is in fact a harsh & brutal monoculture. Yes, the user chrome is different. Bookmarks, history, settings & sync sound like the main differences. But fundamentally users are still trapped with a a browser that makes extremely fantastically conservative decisions that they cannot possibly escape from. > wanting to enforce the most performant, secure and energy efficient rendering engine Energy efficiency is indeed pretty good on Safari desktop, but there's also plenty of tests that will show Chrome winning. It's impossible to compare on mobile, because Google can't develop for iOS. I'd be hard pressed to accept accepting Safari as more secure or more performant[1]. Especially as we continue to advance, Safari just doesn't have modern web features. Web bundles? Nope. Early-hints? Modern web optimizations just aren't possible. [1] https://www.theverge.com/2022/3/7/22965756/google-chrome-apple-safari-speedometer-benchmark-web-scripts-300-score https://www.theverge.com/2022/3/7/22965756/google-chrome-app...
- freediver 4y ago
  I haven't ever seen any test where Chrome was more energy efficient than WebKit. Usually difference is so stark it is 2x. Performance wise, Chrome/Blink had a brief lead in March but since WebKit has again surpassed it. Currently WebKit is about 10% faster on macOS. Security wise - when is the last time you had to update your iPhone/iPad because of a security issue in WebKit? Even on desktop, check the rate of Chromium security vulnerabilities vs WebKit. > I think we're trying a little too actively to promote a sense of significant diversity here, where there is in fact a harsh & brutal monoculture. As someone building a macOS/iOS browser I can say that WebView != Browser. There is so much to be built around a rendering engine for something to be considered a browser today. > Safari just doesn't have modern web features. Web bundles? Nope. Early-hints? Modern web optimizations just aren't possible. This is not always true. https://wpt.fyi/interop-2022 https://wpt.fyi/interop-2022 Yes I am cherry picking, but so were you ;) Also consider that most users these days do not care about web bundles or early-hints. They care about speed, security, battery life and privacy. I feel as WebKit delivers on these essentials and is a good base for a browser. Having Blink/Gecko on iOS may bring a web feature or two but is also sure to compromise on other things.
  - rektide 4y ago
    > Performance wise, Chrome/Blink had a brief lead in March but since WebKit has again surpassed it. Currently WebKit is about 10% faster on macOS. I've also heard no such claims, seen no evidence Safari has found new vast wins to "beat" chrome on, whatever that means. I think it's also absurd that we accept such primitive rankings in the first place, although I myself have shared some of these reductionist claims. Fast at what? There's so many different conditions, so many things we could measure. Is Safari the fastest WebGPU engine? Are they best time-to-first-paint? For what kind of site complexities? Is there JS or just pure HTML? Apple themselves invented Speedometer- an interesting & creative test of loading a lot of different TodoMVC apps, one after another- and for a while dominated it, but Chrome continues to excel[1] (day old article). What data were you looking at, if any, or just heresay? One category I'd point out: I haven't heard a single web-game developer ever thank Safari for anything. These people deserve good treatment, are doing great work. Safari isn't helping them, isn't fast there. (Also props to Chrome for optimizing on a brand new platform that they have had far far less time to optimize for.) > As someone building a macOS/iOS browser I can say that WebView != Browser. There is so much to be built around a rendering engine for something to be considered a browser today. As a web site developer, it all looks like the same shitty, low feature, piece of crap turtle that doesn't implement shit. I can offer my users no more features on your browser than any other turd bucket WebView based browser. It's not your fault, the platform is just deficient, grossly. As for wpt.fyi interop testing, I dig it. There's some very good stuff Safari is up to, thank you for sharing. Better colors is excellent. I would note however: > These scores represent how browser engines are doing in 15 focus areas and 3 joint investigation efforts. This seems to be 100% only agreed upon areas, where each browser already has some stake. It's all rendering, not platform features. So we basically ignore the fact that Safari doesn't have web bundles, doesn't have early hints, doesn't have http3, doesn't have gamepads, doesn't have midi. I'm barely getting started. Safari isn't always- but quite quite frequently is- an obstacle to modernity. > Also consider that most users these days do not care about web bundles or early-hints. They care about speed,... These two statements contradict. Webbundles and early-hints are techniques for performance optimization. I'm willing to bet by 2030 Safari is dragged into doing the right thing here, but right now they keep the web slow. [1] https://9to5google.com/2022/06/06/chrome-mac-speedometer/ https://9to5google.com/2022/06/06/chrome-mac-speedometer/

rektide 4y ago

> The role of WebKit is just to render a web page - a modern browser is so much more than that. The roll of the webview is more than webkit rendering. It encompasses the javascript engine, all it's capabilities, it includes many many many of the platform APIs. I'd be interested to hear if Chrome or Firefox or any other iOS browsers implement any web apis on iOS that aren't present in Safari, but I doubt it, and I'm not sure whether that's a hard web view limitation. I think we're trying a little too actively to promote a sense of significant diversity here, where there is in fact a harsh & brutal monoculture. Yes, the user chrome is different. Bookmarks, history, settings & sync sound like the main differences. But fundamentally users are still trapped with a a browser that makes extremely fantastically conservative decisions that they cannot possibly escape from. > wanting to enforce the most performant, secure and energy efficient rendering engine Energy efficiency is indeed pretty good on Safari desktop, but there's also plenty of tests that will show Chrome winning. It's impossible to compare on mobile, because Google can't develop for iOS. I'd be hard pressed to accept accepting Safari as more secure or more performant[1]. Especially as we continue to advance, Safari just doesn't have modern web features. Web bundles? Nope. Early-hints? Modern web optimizations just aren't possible. [1] https://www.theverge.com/2022/3/7/22965756/google-chrome-apple-safari-speedometer-benchmark-web-scripts-300-score https://www.theverge.com/2022/3/7/22965756/google-chrome-app...

freediver 4y ago
I haven't ever seen any test where Chrome was more energy efficient than WebKit. Usually difference is so stark it is 2x. Performance wise, Chrome/Blink had a brief lead in March but since WebKit has again surpassed it. Currently WebKit is about 10% faster on macOS. Security wise - when is the last time you had to update your iPhone/iPad because of a security issue in WebKit? Even on desktop, check the rate of Chromium security vulnerabilities vs WebKit. > I think we're trying a little too actively to promote a sense of significant diversity here, where there is in fact a harsh & brutal monoculture. As someone building a macOS/iOS browser I can say that WebView != Browser. There is so much to be built around a rendering engine for something to be considered a browser today. > Safari just doesn't have modern web features. Web bundles? Nope. Early-hints? Modern web optimizations just aren't possible. This is not always true. https://wpt.fyi/interop-2022 https://wpt.fyi/interop-2022 Yes I am cherry picking, but so were you ;) Also consider that most users these days do not care about web bundles or early-hints. They care about speed, security, battery life and privacy. I feel as WebKit delivers on these essentials and is a good base for a browser. Having Blink/Gecko on iOS may bring a web feature or two but is also sure to compromise on other things.
- rektide 4y ago
  > Performance wise, Chrome/Blink had a brief lead in March but since WebKit has again surpassed it. Currently WebKit is about 10% faster on macOS. I've also heard no such claims, seen no evidence Safari has found new vast wins to "beat" chrome on, whatever that means. I think it's also absurd that we accept such primitive rankings in the first place, although I myself have shared some of these reductionist claims. Fast at what? There's so many different conditions, so many things we could measure. Is Safari the fastest WebGPU engine? Are they best time-to-first-paint? For what kind of site complexities? Is there JS or just pure HTML? Apple themselves invented Speedometer- an interesting & creative test of loading a lot of different TodoMVC apps, one after another- and for a while dominated it, but Chrome continues to excel[1] (day old article). What data were you looking at, if any, or just heresay? One category I'd point out: I haven't heard a single web-game developer ever thank Safari for anything. These people deserve good treatment, are doing great work. Safari isn't helping them, isn't fast there. (Also props to Chrome for optimizing on a brand new platform that they have had far far less time to optimize for.) > As someone building a macOS/iOS browser I can say that WebView != Browser. There is so much to be built around a rendering engine for something to be considered a browser today. As a web site developer, it all looks like the same shitty, low feature, piece of crap turtle that doesn't implement shit. I can offer my users no more features on your browser than any other turd bucket WebView based browser. It's not your fault, the platform is just deficient, grossly. As for wpt.fyi interop testing, I dig it. There's some very good stuff Safari is up to, thank you for sharing. Better colors is excellent. I would note however: > These scores represent how browser engines are doing in 15 focus areas and 3 joint investigation efforts. This seems to be 100% only agreed upon areas, where each browser already has some stake. It's all rendering, not platform features. So we basically ignore the fact that Safari doesn't have web bundles, doesn't have early hints, doesn't have http3, doesn't have gamepads, doesn't have midi. I'm barely getting started. Safari isn't always- but quite quite frequently is- an obstacle to modernity. > Also consider that most users these days do not care about web bundles or early-hints. They care about speed,... These two statements contradict. Webbundles and early-hints are techniques for performance optimization. I'm willing to bet by 2030 Safari is dragged into doing the right thing here, but right now they keep the web slow. [1] https://9to5google.com/2022/06/06/chrome-mac-speedometer/ https://9to5google.com/2022/06/06/chrome-mac-speedometer/