4 ms·

There are over 100 browsers to choose from on iOS as well as on macOS?

rektide 4y ago
Apple famously & longstandingly requires all "browsers" on iOS to use the builtin web views. There are Chrome and Firefox (and others), but they lack many many web platform capabilities & don't boast the far more more featureful render engine that either browser ships with on any other platform. It's all reskinned Safari, forever & ever. For a while the web view they were making apps use was lagging way way behind Safari itself- was just dog slow & utterly unaccelerated[1], but they finally at least ship moderately capable webviews in iOS now. That was a solid half decade of brutal tyranny- anything trying to use the web platform at all had a terrible time, & alternative browsers were a sick laggy disgusting joke. This is one of the biggest sorest points about Apple's complete dominion over iOS & their rule by app store (for many): this titan don't even allow healthy competition on the web. They hold the whole web back. Safari would feel like far less of a villianous poison if Apple didn't rule iOS with a bloody iron fist. [1] http://9to5mac.com/2014/06/03/ios-8-webkit-changes-finally-allow-all-apps-to-have-the-same-performance-as-safari/ http://9to5mac.com/2014/06/03/ios-8-webkit-changes-finally-a... https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7843943 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7843943 (12 points, 8 years ago, 1 comments)
- freediver 4y ago
  I understand the argument of being locked to a single rendering engine (WebKit), but there is just so much to a browser than a rendering engine. Chrome and Firefox on iOS both have the opportunity for their own sync, their own bookmarks/history/settings implementation, their own telemetry, choice to use native controls or not, to decide whether to block ads, trackers and respect user privacy - that is all at discretion of the actual browser app. The role of WebKit is just to render a web page - a modern browser is so much more than that. Now, would allowing other rendering engines be better for iOS? I ultimately think it would, but also can understand Apple's stance of wanting to enforce the most performant, secure and energy efficient rendering engine on something as sensitive to these parameters as a mobile phone.
  - rektide 4y ago
    > The role of WebKit is just to render a web page - a modern browser is so much more than that. The roll of the webview is more than webkit rendering. It encompasses the javascript engine, all it's capabilities, it includes many many many of the platform APIs. I'd be interested to hear if Chrome or Firefox or any other iOS browsers implement any web apis on iOS that aren't present in Safari, but I doubt it, and I'm not sure whether that's a hard web view limitation. I think we're trying a little too actively to promote a sense of significant diversity here, where there is in fact a harsh & brutal monoculture. Yes, the user chrome is different. Bookmarks, history, settings & sync sound like the main differences. But fundamentally users are still trapped with a a browser that makes extremely fantastically conservative decisions that they cannot possibly escape from. > wanting to enforce the most performant, secure and energy efficient rendering engine Energy efficiency is indeed pretty good on Safari desktop, but there's also plenty of tests that will show Chrome winning. It's impossible to compare on mobile, because Google can't develop for iOS. I'd be hard pressed to accept accepting Safari as more secure or more performant[1]. Especially as we continue to advance, Safari just doesn't have modern web features. Web bundles? Nope. Early-hints? Modern web optimizations just aren't possible. [1] https://www.theverge.com/2022/3/7/22965756/google-chrome-apple-safari-speedometer-benchmark-web-scripts-300-score https://www.theverge.com/2022/3/7/22965756/google-chrome-app...
    - freediver 4y ago
      I haven't ever seen any test where Chrome was more energy efficient than WebKit. Usually difference is so stark it is 2x. Performance wise, Chrome/Blink had a brief lead in March but since WebKit has again surpassed it. Currently WebKit is about 10% faster on macOS. Security wise - when is the last time you had to update your iPhone/iPad because of a security issue in WebKit? Even on desktop, check the rate of Chromium security vulnerabilities vs WebKit. > I think we're trying a little too actively to promote a sense of significant diversity here, where there is in fact a harsh & brutal monoculture. As someone building a macOS/iOS browser I can say that WebView != Browser. There is so much to be built around a rendering engine for something to be considered a browser today. > Safari just doesn't have modern web features. Web bundles? Nope. Early-hints? Modern web optimizations just aren't possible. This is not always true. https://wpt.fyi/interop-2022 https://wpt.fyi/interop-2022 Yes I am cherry picking, but so were you ;) Also consider that most users these days do not care about web bundles or early-hints. They care about speed, security, battery life and privacy. I feel as WebKit delivers on these essentials and is a good base for a browser. Having Blink/Gecko on iOS may bring a web feature or two but is also sure to compromise on other things.

Apple famously & longstandingly requires all "browsers" on iOS to use the builtin web views. There are Chrome and Firefox (and others), but they lack many many web platform capabilities & don't boast the far more more featureful render engine that either browser ships with on any other platform. It's all reskinned Safari, forever & ever. For a while the web view they were making apps use was lagging way way behind Safari itself- was just dog slow & utterly unaccelerated[1], but they finally at least ship moderately capable webviews in iOS now. That was a solid half decade of brutal tyranny- anything trying to use the web platform at all had a terrible time, & alternative browsers were a sick laggy disgusting joke. This is one of the biggest sorest points about Apple's complete dominion over iOS & their rule by app store (for many): this titan don't even allow healthy competition on the web. They hold the whole web back. Safari would feel like far less of a villianous poison if Apple didn't rule iOS with a bloody iron fist. [1] http://9to5mac.com/2014/06/03/ios-8-webkit-changes-finally-allow-all-apps-to-have-the-same-performance-as-safari/ http://9to5mac.com/2014/06/03/ios-8-webkit-changes-finally-a... https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7843943 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7843943 (12 points, 8 years ago, 1 comments)

freediver 4y ago
I understand the argument of being locked to a single rendering engine (WebKit), but there is just so much to a browser than a rendering engine. Chrome and Firefox on iOS both have the opportunity for their own sync, their own bookmarks/history/settings implementation, their own telemetry, choice to use native controls or not, to decide whether to block ads, trackers and respect user privacy - that is all at discretion of the actual browser app. The role of WebKit is just to render a web page - a modern browser is so much more than that. Now, would allowing other rendering engines be better for iOS? I ultimately think it would, but also can understand Apple's stance of wanting to enforce the most performant, secure and energy efficient rendering engine on something as sensitive to these parameters as a mobile phone.
- rektide 4y ago
  > The role of WebKit is just to render a web page - a modern browser is so much more than that. The roll of the webview is more than webkit rendering. It encompasses the javascript engine, all it's capabilities, it includes many many many of the platform APIs. I'd be interested to hear if Chrome or Firefox or any other iOS browsers implement any web apis on iOS that aren't present in Safari, but I doubt it, and I'm not sure whether that's a hard web view limitation. I think we're trying a little too actively to promote a sense of significant diversity here, where there is in fact a harsh & brutal monoculture. Yes, the user chrome is different. Bookmarks, history, settings & sync sound like the main differences. But fundamentally users are still trapped with a a browser that makes extremely fantastically conservative decisions that they cannot possibly escape from. > wanting to enforce the most performant, secure and energy efficient rendering engine Energy efficiency is indeed pretty good on Safari desktop, but there's also plenty of tests that will show Chrome winning. It's impossible to compare on mobile, because Google can't develop for iOS. I'd be hard pressed to accept accepting Safari as more secure or more performant[1]. Especially as we continue to advance, Safari just doesn't have modern web features. Web bundles? Nope. Early-hints? Modern web optimizations just aren't possible. [1] https://www.theverge.com/2022/3/7/22965756/google-chrome-apple-safari-speedometer-benchmark-web-scripts-300-score https://www.theverge.com/2022/3/7/22965756/google-chrome-app...
  - freediver 4y ago
    I haven't ever seen any test where Chrome was more energy efficient than WebKit. Usually difference is so stark it is 2x. Performance wise, Chrome/Blink had a brief lead in March but since WebKit has again surpassed it. Currently WebKit is about 10% faster on macOS. Security wise - when is the last time you had to update your iPhone/iPad because of a security issue in WebKit? Even on desktop, check the rate of Chromium security vulnerabilities vs WebKit. > I think we're trying a little too actively to promote a sense of significant diversity here, where there is in fact a harsh & brutal monoculture. As someone building a macOS/iOS browser I can say that WebView != Browser. There is so much to be built around a rendering engine for something to be considered a browser today. > Safari just doesn't have modern web features. Web bundles? Nope. Early-hints? Modern web optimizations just aren't possible. This is not always true. https://wpt.fyi/interop-2022 https://wpt.fyi/interop-2022 Yes I am cherry picking, but so were you ;) Also consider that most users these days do not care about web bundles or early-hints. They care about speed, security, battery life and privacy. I feel as WebKit delivers on these essentials and is a good base for a browser. Having Blink/Gecko on iOS may bring a web feature or two but is also sure to compromise on other things.