5 ms·

We Won't Raise Our Kids in Suburbia

6 points by fumblebee 4y ago

anm89 4y ago
Am I the only person who finds strong towns and notjustbikes to be insanely condescending? Not only do they know the way they would like to live, they know how every single person should live and you aren't as smart as them if you'd prefer something different. Nevermind that they seem to base the way all of humanity should live and act off of how a few cities in scandanvia work that have very specific demographics and history and sovereign wealth funds which put them only second to the middle east on how much oil wealth they have per capita. Go live in Gary or Camden or Baltimore or Detroit and tell me how a bike lane will solve the worlds problems.
- trinovantes 4y ago
  Here's a thought experiment: (assume 0% inflation to keep things simple) What if I told you 50 years from now society would need to pay an extra $6-8k per year in transportation costs than necessary? In such a world, there are also a lot more negative externalities e.g. pollution, wealth inequality, quality of life, etc. Instead of being outraged, society would actually cheer for it and defend it. Pretty crazy huh? Also I think the simplest theory on why some countries (Netherlands, China, Korea, Japan) invested heavily in public transportation while others (US/Canada) invested in suburbs/highways is because the former are ethnostates. Good luck trying to convince North America to use public transportation, no matter how luxurious, when the prevalent mindset at that time resulted in incidents like Rosa Parks.
  - anm89 4y ago
    > What if I told you 50 years from now society would need to pay an extra $6-8k per year in transportation costs than necessary? First I'd say I don't know what data you are quoting so this holds essentially no weight with me until then. Second, I'd happily pay 6-8k not to live in most US cities. I already basically do. I've also never been assualted or come into contact with the urine or feces of a homesless person in my own car. Can't say the same for public transportation. I'd pay more than 8k a year for that to remain true.
    - trinovantes 4y ago
      Cost of public transportation in Toronto is around $2k/yr whereas car ownership (monthly payments, gas, insurance, maintenance) is close to $8-10k/yr. I'd imagine it's similar to most places in the US that has public transportation. So yes, most people in North America are already happily paying this extra cost. As NJB/ST videos have shown, society doesn't have to be this way. You say homelessness and mental health is a problem. However, I'd say that's just a symptom of the high cost of living caused in part due to car dependency. Easy access to transportation and thus job opportunities is a key component in social mobility. But when the poor has to pay an unnecessary extra $6-8k/yr to car/oil/insurance companies just to participate in society, they tend to remain poor.
  - theamk 4y ago
    This is a strange logic -- the life is not about money. Here is a counter-question: What if you could buy more hours for your life? Instead of visiting grandparents once per month (because 2 separate trains + a bus is pretty hard trip for someone with little kids), you could visit them every weekend. Instead of only seeing wild animals in the zoo, you can see them in the forest.. and still have time for chores afterwards. Instead of shopping at your local store, where every single yogurt has an added thickener, you can have a better food at a cheaper price -- and spend less time on shopping per week, too. I lived in the big city with a great transportation system (not in the US). I would not want to to live in such place again.
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
    - trinovantes 4y ago
      "It's easier to fool people than to convince them that they've been fooled" I used money as it's universally understood to demonstrate how absurd North America urban planning is. But let's say for the sake of argument, you prefer non quantifiable qualities: > Instead of visiting grandparents once per month (because 2 separate trains + a bus is pretty hard trip for someone with little kids), you could visit them every weekend. Alternatively your grandparents can live within walking distance and everybody can see each other everyday or have spontaneous encounters on the streets > Instead of only seeing wild animals in the zoo, you can see them in the forest.. and still have time for chores afterwards. I'm not a woodsman but I'm pretty sure most wild animals are too dangerous for you to be close enough to have a zoo-like experience > Instead of shopping at your local store, where every single yogurt has an added thickener, you can have a better food at a cheaper price -- and spend less time on shopping per week, too. NJB conveniently has a video on this topic as well. Grocery shopping is no longer a 1-2h weekly chore and is just a quick 10 minute detour in your daily commute. The stores also have large variety of healthy produce and buying what you need immediately also results in less food waste. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kYHTzqHIngk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kYHTzqHIngk
- sn0w_crash 4y ago
  Agreed. These people feel the need to tell everyone else how to live, and any disagreement is a sign of “lack of intellect” or something of that sort. It’s a strange kind of narcissism.
- qazwse_ 4y ago
  They aren't basing it off of Scandinavia at all, it's the Netherlands, and they don't have a sovereign wealth fund at all. As far as I'm aware, that's only Norway, and I don't think Norway is really looked to as a model for city design or bike infrastructure, that tends to be Denmark. And for those cities, no bike lanes won't solve all of their problems, but I think you're ignoring how the post-war car-focused development ended up contributing or reinforcing issues these cities face. To look at other countries and ignore the benefits of their city design is fucking stupid. Ignoring happiness, we can see better health, lower emissions (and the Netherlands, for all their hype, do have higher emissions than their neighbours), fewer dangers for everyone using the roads, better mobility for poor people: why are any of these things not desirable?
freediver 4y ago
Thanks for submitting. Topic that needs to be studied more.
gepardi 4y ago
I hope we can redesign our cities quickly.

6 points by fumblebee 4y ago

Am I the only person who finds strong towns and notjustbikes to be insanely condescending? Not only do they know the way they would like to live, they know how every single person should live and you aren't as smart as them if you'd prefer something different. Nevermind that they seem to base the way all of humanity should live and act off of how a few cities in scandanvia work that have very specific demographics and history and sovereign wealth funds which put them only second to the middle east on how much oil wealth they have per capita. Go live in Gary or Camden or Baltimore or Detroit and tell me how a bike lane will solve the worlds problems.

trinovantes 4y ago
Here's a thought experiment: (assume 0% inflation to keep things simple) What if I told you 50 years from now society would need to pay an extra $6-8k per year in transportation costs than necessary? In such a world, there are also a lot more negative externalities e.g. pollution, wealth inequality, quality of life, etc. Instead of being outraged, society would actually cheer for it and defend it. Pretty crazy huh? Also I think the simplest theory on why some countries (Netherlands, China, Korea, Japan) invested heavily in public transportation while others (US/Canada) invested in suburbs/highways is because the former are ethnostates. Good luck trying to convince North America to use public transportation, no matter how luxurious, when the prevalent mindset at that time resulted in incidents like Rosa Parks.
- anm89 4y ago
  > What if I told you 50 years from now society would need to pay an extra $6-8k per year in transportation costs than necessary? First I'd say I don't know what data you are quoting so this holds essentially no weight with me until then. Second, I'd happily pay 6-8k not to live in most US cities. I already basically do. I've also never been assualted or come into contact with the urine or feces of a homesless person in my own car. Can't say the same for public transportation. I'd pay more than 8k a year for that to remain true.
  - trinovantes 4y ago
    Cost of public transportation in Toronto is around $2k/yr whereas car ownership (monthly payments, gas, insurance, maintenance) is close to $8-10k/yr. I'd imagine it's similar to most places in the US that has public transportation. So yes, most people in North America are already happily paying this extra cost. As NJB/ST videos have shown, society doesn't have to be this way. You say homelessness and mental health is a problem. However, I'd say that's just a symptom of the high cost of living caused in part due to car dependency. Easy access to transportation and thus job opportunities is a key component in social mobility. But when the poor has to pay an unnecessary extra $6-8k/yr to car/oil/insurance companies just to participate in society, they tend to remain poor.
- theamk 4y ago
  This is a strange logic -- the life is not about money. Here is a counter-question: What if you could buy more hours for your life? Instead of visiting grandparents once per month (because 2 separate trains + a bus is pretty hard trip for someone with little kids), you could visit them every weekend. Instead of only seeing wild animals in the zoo, you can see them in the forest.. and still have time for chores afterwards. Instead of shopping at your local store, where every single yogurt has an added thickener, you can have a better food at a cheaper price -- and spend less time on shopping per week, too. I lived in the big city with a great transportation system (not in the US). I would not want to to live in such place again.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - trinovantes 4y ago
    "It's easier to fool people than to convince them that they've been fooled" I used money as it's universally understood to demonstrate how absurd North America urban planning is. But let's say for the sake of argument, you prefer non quantifiable qualities: > Instead of visiting grandparents once per month (because 2 separate trains + a bus is pretty hard trip for someone with little kids), you could visit them every weekend. Alternatively your grandparents can live within walking distance and everybody can see each other everyday or have spontaneous encounters on the streets > Instead of only seeing wild animals in the zoo, you can see them in the forest.. and still have time for chores afterwards. I'm not a woodsman but I'm pretty sure most wild animals are too dangerous for you to be close enough to have a zoo-like experience > Instead of shopping at your local store, where every single yogurt has an added thickener, you can have a better food at a cheaper price -- and spend less time on shopping per week, too. NJB conveniently has a video on this topic as well. Grocery shopping is no longer a 1-2h weekly chore and is just a quick 10 minute detour in your daily commute. The stores also have large variety of healthy produce and buying what you need immediately also results in less food waste. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kYHTzqHIngk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kYHTzqHIngk
sn0w_crash 4y ago
Agreed. These people feel the need to tell everyone else how to live, and any disagreement is a sign of “lack of intellect” or something of that sort. It’s a strange kind of narcissism.
qazwse_ 4y ago
They aren't basing it off of Scandinavia at all, it's the Netherlands, and they don't have a sovereign wealth fund at all. As far as I'm aware, that's only Norway, and I don't think Norway is really looked to as a model for city design or bike infrastructure, that tends to be Denmark. And for those cities, no bike lanes won't solve all of their problems, but I think you're ignoring how the post-war car-focused development ended up contributing or reinforcing issues these cities face. To look at other countries and ignore the benefits of their city design is fucking stupid. Ignoring happiness, we can see better health, lower emissions (and the Netherlands, for all their hype, do have higher emissions than their neighbours), fewer dangers for everyone using the roads, better mobility for poor people: why are any of these things not desirable?

freediver 4y ago

Thanks for submitting. Topic that needs to be studied more.

gepardi 4y ago

I hope we can redesign our cities quickly.