4 ms·

Still no support for Web Bluetooth in Webkit: https://caniuse.com/web-bluetooth https://caniuse.com/web-bluetooth Only major browser not to support it. If they

by raminf 4y ago

Still no support for Web Bluetooth in Webkit: https://caniuse.com/web-bluetooth https://caniuse.com/web-bluetooth Only major browser not to support it. If they enable it and put hooks for BLE event callbacks, we would no longer need a custom app per-device. Also, if BLE support was there, you could provision your WiFi-connected device without having to go do the whole AP-mode dance: push button on device, toggle WiFi on your phone, set it up on WiFi, etc. It's a big usability blocker for consumer devices. That whole sequence could be automated by visiting a URL on your phone or desktop. They've announced they won't support it, ostensibly because of fingerprinting and privacy concerns. But that could be tackled the same way they've blocked all the other fingerprinting methods (fuzzing, threat of blocking, etc.) Also: WebXR please.

K0nserv 4y ago
Only major browser not to support it? Firefox doesn’t either and every other browser just does so because they all use the same engine. A better characterisation of the situation might be: “Web Bluetooth is a non-standard feature supported only by one of the three modern browser engines”. I’m so tired of Google inventing arbitrary stuff for the web, implementing it, and everyone then expecting Mozilla and Apple to just follow suit.
- rektide 4y ago
  > I'm so tired of Google inventing arbitrary stuff for the web, implementing it, and everyone then expecting Mozilla and Apple to just follow suit. I agree, the situation is awful. It'd be so nice to have a more diverse & robust community of web browsers. The jury pool for "voting" on stnadards is way too small. I'd also point out that Microsoft is still very much here. They may be using Chrome's engine, but they're under no obligation to enable all the features, to stick exactly to what Google is doing. If Edge agrees, it's at least somewhat of a vote. Right now, either Apple & Mozilla have effective veto power on the web. Mozilla is deeply understaffed & barely if at all able to keep up with development. They thankfully started answering request-for-positions a bit back, but I see a lot of specs now-a-days with no response. There's so much web-hating about that things are really tough. There's so many people for whom the web is joy & amazingness, & this feels like a hard condescension to face. Push back feels like broad push back against doing good things, feels like a desire to keep what feels great to us from growing. Tools like VSCode are superpowered badasses, fast & capable with great easy-to-write extensions; true blood of the web. But we can't escape Slack being a dog, and people's long & deep feelings of dislike. Apple has long (well over a decade) been the foot dragging, complaining, miserable laggard, with lots of their own ideas & little willingness to play with others. They invested so little into their webtech for decades, just absolutely miniscule, and the teams had heavy bias, strong ways of thinking they wouldn't bend on. Mozilla recently seems to have switched sides: having given up on WebOS & an rich web platform, they now seem to spend more time claiming to be "pro-privacy" & fighting against really good new capabilities (eg WebMIDI) than working things forwards. Apple and Mozilla both know Google is widely reviled & mistrusted, and are marketing the shit out of their anti-web-platform stances; 'any risk to users is too great!'. Thankfully we see a ton of really really good work happening on https://wicg.io https://wicg.io. It's a good neutral territory to make the platform better. Tons of the web improvements happening are vendor-neutral, are just people with good ideas, that eventually, with support & community, stand a chance of getting sensible improvements implemented in 1 or 2, very occasionally 3 browsers. Alas, there's Apple. :'( Anyhow, yes.
  - rektide 4y ago
    Once again being downvoted for being pro-web & having some suggestions/feelings. Anyone care to contribute some actual points, or are we just going to downvote each other silently?
    - chipotle_coyote 4y ago
      I haven't downvoted you, and won't, but I might gently offer the observation that you are perhaps just a wee bit strident. By which I mean that after a half-dozen of your comments on this thread, I am now basically translating them all as "the web is super duper amazing and full of rainbows and everything is wonderful on it except for some poopyheads who don't do everything that the great Google demands and also you tired jerky jerky relics who think there's a place for native apps which haven't advanced since 1970 OMG I bet you people are all using black-and-white CRTs get with the program." You like web apps. We get it.
      - rektide 4y ago
        Thanks; not wrong. I don't want to try to rebut; I accept this, appreciate it. I do want to just offer, perhaps, that I feel like there's a huge tide I feel, of rejectionism & negativity, in the world & also here. One of the site guidelines that I think is violated consistently, that deeply violates the Hacker ethic of inquiry & exploration is: > Please don't post shallow dismissals, I respond a lot because I see a lot of people just blowing shit off, creating a lot of iniquitous social pressure- creates a sense of certainty & derision- without argumentation, without allowing that there might possibly be good or advantages or reasons for things. People stridenly believe this or that things are terrible & awful, & they don't want to debate: they just want to score points, be able to preserve what parts of them have that belief. I'd like to see such a more explorative mindset. Let us speculate, let us regard positive possibilities of things, consider how so/so things might possibly get better or improve. I think humanity deserves far better fates, and we deserve them on most topics. Contrary especially to the loudest & often most cantankerous opinion-havers- the jury is out. To seed only doubt & debate-to-win denies the future. To condemn too quickly & too readily is to obstruct gain & possibility, prevents the letting the good ever occur, predisposes us to ruination. I stridenly believe that, and stridenly believe it is existentially imperative that unbounded negativity be routed. I admit readily it's hard for me to keep balanced, keep eyes on the real prize, of openness & exploration, but I hope I can reasonably channel & embody the open & inquisitive Hacker spirit, hope I can encourage growth & exploration & interest in electronic frontiers. I hope I'm learning & getting better at it.
dwaite 4y ago
> But that could be tackled the same way they've blocked all the other fingerprinting methods (fuzzing, threat of blocking, etc.) The reason browsers implement convoluted AI-based systems for things like rejecting cookies is that browser makers can't risk the regulatory fallout of blocking without a consistently enforced and static business policy. Not implementing a feature at all is a great way to avoid getting in a conflict, such as a lawsuit in some international jurisdiction over whether blocking a particular use of bluetooth is anticompetitive. Thats ignoring that some of the most harmful forms abuse come from those who are willing to register hundreds of throwaway domains to avoid static block lists. Block lists are based on location and not on legal entity.

by raminf 4y ago

K0nserv 4y ago

Only major browser not to support it? Firefox doesn’t either and every other browser just does so because they all use the same engine. A better characterisation of the situation might be: “Web Bluetooth is a non-standard feature supported only by one of the three modern browser engines”. I’m so tired of Google inventing arbitrary stuff for the web, implementing it, and everyone then expecting Mozilla and Apple to just follow suit.

rektide 4y ago
> I'm so tired of Google inventing arbitrary stuff for the web, implementing it, and everyone then expecting Mozilla and Apple to just follow suit. I agree, the situation is awful. It'd be so nice to have a more diverse & robust community of web browsers. The jury pool for "voting" on stnadards is way too small. I'd also point out that Microsoft is still very much here. They may be using Chrome's engine, but they're under no obligation to enable all the features, to stick exactly to what Google is doing. If Edge agrees, it's at least somewhat of a vote. Right now, either Apple & Mozilla have effective veto power on the web. Mozilla is deeply understaffed & barely if at all able to keep up with development. They thankfully started answering request-for-positions a bit back, but I see a lot of specs now-a-days with no response. There's so much web-hating about that things are really tough. There's so many people for whom the web is joy & amazingness, & this feels like a hard condescension to face. Push back feels like broad push back against doing good things, feels like a desire to keep what feels great to us from growing. Tools like VSCode are superpowered badasses, fast & capable with great easy-to-write extensions; true blood of the web. But we can't escape Slack being a dog, and people's long & deep feelings of dislike. Apple has long (well over a decade) been the foot dragging, complaining, miserable laggard, with lots of their own ideas & little willingness to play with others. They invested so little into their webtech for decades, just absolutely miniscule, and the teams had heavy bias, strong ways of thinking they wouldn't bend on. Mozilla recently seems to have switched sides: having given up on WebOS & an rich web platform, they now seem to spend more time claiming to be "pro-privacy" & fighting against really good new capabilities (eg WebMIDI) than working things forwards. Apple and Mozilla both know Google is widely reviled & mistrusted, and are marketing the shit out of their anti-web-platform stances; 'any risk to users is too great!'. Thankfully we see a ton of really really good work happening on https://wicg.io https://wicg.io. It's a good neutral territory to make the platform better. Tons of the web improvements happening are vendor-neutral, are just people with good ideas, that eventually, with support & community, stand a chance of getting sensible improvements implemented in 1 or 2, very occasionally 3 browsers. Alas, there's Apple. :'( Anyhow, yes.
- rektide 4y ago
  Once again being downvoted for being pro-web & having some suggestions/feelings. Anyone care to contribute some actual points, or are we just going to downvote each other silently?
  - chipotle_coyote 4y ago
    I haven't downvoted you, and won't, but I might gently offer the observation that you are perhaps just a wee bit strident. By which I mean that after a half-dozen of your comments on this thread, I am now basically translating them all as "the web is super duper amazing and full of rainbows and everything is wonderful on it except for some poopyheads who don't do everything that the great Google demands and also you tired jerky jerky relics who think there's a place for native apps which haven't advanced since 1970 OMG I bet you people are all using black-and-white CRTs get with the program." You like web apps. We get it.
    - rektide 4y ago
      Thanks; not wrong. I don't want to try to rebut; I accept this, appreciate it. I do want to just offer, perhaps, that I feel like there's a huge tide I feel, of rejectionism & negativity, in the world & also here. One of the site guidelines that I think is violated consistently, that deeply violates the Hacker ethic of inquiry & exploration is: > Please don't post shallow dismissals, I respond a lot because I see a lot of people just blowing shit off, creating a lot of iniquitous social pressure- creates a sense of certainty & derision- without argumentation, without allowing that there might possibly be good or advantages or reasons for things. People stridenly believe this or that things are terrible & awful, & they don't want to debate: they just want to score points, be able to preserve what parts of them have that belief. I'd like to see such a more explorative mindset. Let us speculate, let us regard positive possibilities of things, consider how so/so things might possibly get better or improve. I think humanity deserves far better fates, and we deserve them on most topics. Contrary especially to the loudest & often most cantankerous opinion-havers- the jury is out. To seed only doubt & debate-to-win denies the future. To condemn too quickly & too readily is to obstruct gain & possibility, prevents the letting the good ever occur, predisposes us to ruination. I stridenly believe that, and stridenly believe it is existentially imperative that unbounded negativity be routed. I admit readily it's hard for me to keep balanced, keep eyes on the real prize, of openness & exploration, but I hope I can reasonably channel & embody the open & inquisitive Hacker spirit, hope I can encourage growth & exploration & interest in electronic frontiers. I hope I'm learning & getting better at it.

dwaite 4y ago

> But that could be tackled the same way they've blocked all the other fingerprinting methods (fuzzing, threat of blocking, etc.) The reason browsers implement convoluted AI-based systems for things like rejecting cookies is that browser makers can't risk the regulatory fallout of blocking without a consistently enforced and static business policy. Not implementing a feature at all is a great way to avoid getting in a conflict, such as a lawsuit in some international jurisdiction over whether blocking a particular use of bluetooth is anticompetitive. Thats ignoring that some of the most harmful forms abuse come from those who are willing to register hundreds of throwaway domains to avoid static block lists. Block lists are based on location and not on legal entity.