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> Perhaps if the author had a better attitude towards education and was capable of appreciating the value of mathematics (or more generally, science) in everyda

> Perhaps if the author had a better attitude towards education and was capable of appreciating the value of mathematics (or more generally, science) in everyday life (to say nothing about the importance of this in democracies), then he would not hold this infantile opinion. Caplan has a doctorate, teaches at a university, has written several books and home educated two of his sons to a level where they published academically before they entered university. He’s also more well read in philosophy and literature than average though that is a low bar to clear. If you don’t think a professor of Mathematics, David Edwards, understands the value of Mathematics why do you think you do?

_hcuq 4y ago
A professor of mathematics would have a vested interest, don’t you think? Your logic is faulty,
- barry-cotter 4y ago
  Indeed, when someone argues against their own interests we should take them more seriously, not less. That Edwards thinks the main arguments for teaching advanced Math is garbage when that’s his livelihood should make us look at it closely.
  - epgui 4y ago
    Is he not a fully tenured, late-career professor? I doubt he has even an ounce of concern for job security.
  - kaba0 4y ago
    > someone argues against their own interests we should take them more seriously, not less. I'm not sure it is a good advice in general. All the quack "doctors" that go against the mainstream medicine are actually degree-earnt doctors, yet are just scams.
    - hnfong 4y ago
      If those doctors were to gain from scams then that's an example that corroborates the GP's argument, not a counter example as you seem to make of it. GP did not say "against their profession's interests", just their own.
epgui 4y ago
My argument is that the value of mathematics is not merely, or even principally, in whether it’s useful in everyday life (the first-order utility), but that it is in fact in how it helps you to think better (the higher-order utility). The author, as decorated as he may be, seemingly fails to appreciate the latter: in his own words, he has a “very low opinion of this self-serving nonsense”. The exercise of fleshing out the argument against the higher-order value of mathematics, you will note, is left as an exercise to the reader. This is by definition an anti-intellectualist position: defending such a position, which goes contrary to what should be the default position in general, should require a very high burden of proof, not an offhand dismissal.
- aozgaa 4y ago
  The author addresses the claim about “thinking better” in TFA.
  - epgui 4y ago
    No, he really doesn't. His argument against the higher-order value of mathematics is focused on first-order matters, and a vague allusion to an unspecified conflict of interest (?!). This essentially amounts to no more than "brushing off the argument".
- ljhsiung 4y ago
  > The second argument is the one I always hear around the mathematics department: mathematics helps you to think clearly. I have a very low opinion of this self-serving nonsense. In sports there is the concept of the specificity of skills: if you want to improve your racquetball game, don’t practice squash! I believe the same holds true for intellectual skills. In any case, the case for transference of mathematical skills is unsettled. Directly from the article.
  - epgui 4y ago
    So in other words, his case against the higher order of mathematics is: - He doesn't have a high opinion of it - He makes a vague allusion to some unspecified conflict of interest (?!) - He argues that first-order skill development is most effective (which may be true, but misses the point). - He says that higher order value of mathematics is "unsettled". As he is defending a fundamentally anti-intellectual position, I'm going to need a little more than that.
carlob 4y ago
The fact that someone who is a university professor would remove their kids from the general education pool, makes me think they don't really understand one of the main purposes of education. If their kids were kept in normal schools with other kids, they may have published academically a few years later, but a lot of their peers would have had the privilege of studying with them and improved their academic lives because of that.
- shakow 4y ago
  > but a lot of their peers would have had the privilege of studying with them If you need other students to successfully study, that's either yours or the educational system's failure; but other children shouldn't be dragged down for it.
  - carlob 4y ago
    Yeah, but that's not how things work in reality. There is a large number of studies on the positive effects of integration in education, from more extreme cases such as not having special schools for disabled children to the more mundane socioeconomic mixing. The consensus seems to be that the positive academic effect a smart kid gets from being put in some advanced school is trumped by the negative effect on the average kids. European countries with a strong egalitarian bend in their schooling system seem to do much better than the American ones and not just on average.
    - buescher 4y ago
      >European countries with a strong egalitarian bend in their schooling system Europe is not some fantasy-land where all the dreams of the American left come true. Most European countries track students into separate secondary schools based on their demonstrated academic ability. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_secondary_education_systems_by_country#Secondary_education_in_Europe https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_secondary_education_sy...
      - carlob 4y ago
buescher 4y ago
That changes his whole argument to: "it's better for my kids if your kids don't learn math".

_hcuq 4y ago

A professor of mathematics would have a vested interest, don’t you think? Your logic is faulty,

barry-cotter 4y ago
Indeed, when someone argues against their own interests we should take them more seriously, not less. That Edwards thinks the main arguments for teaching advanced Math is garbage when that’s his livelihood should make us look at it closely.
- epgui 4y ago
  Is he not a fully tenured, late-career professor? I doubt he has even an ounce of concern for job security.
- kaba0 4y ago
  > someone argues against their own interests we should take them more seriously, not less. I'm not sure it is a good advice in general. All the quack "doctors" that go against the mainstream medicine are actually degree-earnt doctors, yet are just scams.
  - hnfong 4y ago
    If those doctors were to gain from scams then that's an example that corroborates the GP's argument, not a counter example as you seem to make of it. GP did not say "against their profession's interests", just their own.

epgui 4y ago

My argument is that the value of mathematics is not merely, or even principally, in whether it’s useful in everyday life (the first-order utility), but that it is in fact in how it helps you to think better (the higher-order utility). The author, as decorated as he may be, seemingly fails to appreciate the latter: in his own words, he has a “very low opinion of this self-serving nonsense”. The exercise of fleshing out the argument against the higher-order value of mathematics, you will note, is left as an exercise to the reader. This is by definition an anti-intellectualist position: defending such a position, which goes contrary to what should be the default position in general, should require a very high burden of proof, not an offhand dismissal.

aozgaa 4y ago
The author addresses the claim about “thinking better” in TFA.
- epgui 4y ago
  No, he really doesn't. His argument against the higher-order value of mathematics is focused on first-order matters, and a vague allusion to an unspecified conflict of interest (?!). This essentially amounts to no more than "brushing off the argument".
ljhsiung 4y ago
> The second argument is the one I always hear around the mathematics department: mathematics helps you to think clearly. I have a very low opinion of this self-serving nonsense. In sports there is the concept of the specificity of skills: if you want to improve your racquetball game, don’t practice squash! I believe the same holds true for intellectual skills. In any case, the case for transference of mathematical skills is unsettled. Directly from the article.
- epgui 4y ago
  So in other words, his case against the higher order of mathematics is: - He doesn't have a high opinion of it - He makes a vague allusion to some unspecified conflict of interest (?!) - He argues that first-order skill development is most effective (which may be true, but misses the point). - He says that higher order value of mathematics is "unsettled". As he is defending a fundamentally anti-intellectual position, I'm going to need a little more than that.

carlob 4y ago

The fact that someone who is a university professor would remove their kids from the general education pool, makes me think they don't really understand one of the main purposes of education. If their kids were kept in normal schools with other kids, they may have published academically a few years later, but a lot of their peers would have had the privilege of studying with them and improved their academic lives because of that.

shakow 4y ago
> but a lot of their peers would have had the privilege of studying with them If you need other students to successfully study, that's either yours or the educational system's failure; but other children shouldn't be dragged down for it.
- carlob 4y ago
  Yeah, but that's not how things work in reality. There is a large number of studies on the positive effects of integration in education, from more extreme cases such as not having special schools for disabled children to the more mundane socioeconomic mixing. The consensus seems to be that the positive academic effect a smart kid gets from being put in some advanced school is trumped by the negative effect on the average kids. European countries with a strong egalitarian bend in their schooling system seem to do much better than the American ones and not just on average.
  - buescher 4y ago
    >European countries with a strong egalitarian bend in their schooling system Europe is not some fantasy-land where all the dreams of the American left come true. Most European countries track students into separate secondary schools based on their demonstrated academic ability. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_secondary_education_systems_by_country#Secondary_education_in_Europe https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_secondary_education_sy...
    - carlob 4y ago

buescher 4y ago

That changes his whole argument to: "it's better for my kids if your kids don't learn math".