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Wow, this is exactly the sort of anti-intellectualist drivel that makes me lose faith in humanity. And oh, the irony of dismissing the case for mathematics as

by epgui 4y ago

Wow, this is exactly the sort of anti-intellectualist drivel that makes me lose faith in humanity. And oh, the irony of dismissing the case for mathematics as a thinking aid as “self-serving nonsense” for which the author has “a very low opinion”! Perhaps if the author had a better attitude towards education and was capable of appreciating the value of mathematics (or more generally, science) in everyday life (to say nothing about the importance of this in democracies), then he would not hold this infantile opinion. Sorry, not sorry. Edit: the point is not whether you “use it” when you’re out and about doing your groceries. If you’re judging the value of maths and science by this measure, you’re missing the point, and you’re at such a low level of insight that your perspective is useful to nobody. Rule of thumb: don’t listen to anti-intellectualists.

barry-cotter 4y ago
> Perhaps if the author had a better attitude towards education and was capable of appreciating the value of mathematics (or more generally, science) in everyday life (to say nothing about the importance of this in democracies), then he would not hold this infantile opinion. Caplan has a doctorate, teaches at a university, has written several books and home educated two of his sons to a level where they published academically before they entered university. He’s also more well read in philosophy and literature than average though that is a low bar to clear. If you don’t think a professor of Mathematics, David Edwards, understands the value of Mathematics why do you think you do?
- _hcuq 4y ago
  A professor of mathematics would have a vested interest, don’t you think? Your logic is faulty,
  - barry-cotter 4y ago
    Indeed, when someone argues against their own interests we should take them more seriously, not less. That Edwards thinks the main arguments for teaching advanced Math is garbage when that’s his livelihood should make us look at it closely.
    - epgui 4y ago
      Is he not a fully tenured, late-career professor? I doubt he has even an ounce of concern for job security.
    - kaba0 4y ago
      > someone argues against their own interests we should take them more seriously, not less. I'm not sure it is a good advice in general. All the quack "doctors" that go against the mainstream medicine are actually degree-earnt doctors, yet are just scams.
      - hnfong 4y ago
        If those doctors were to gain from scams then that's an example that corroborates the GP's argument, not a counter example as you seem to make of it. GP did not say "against their profession's interests", just their own.
- epgui 4y ago
  My argument is that the value of mathematics is not merely, or even principally, in whether it’s useful in everyday life (the first-order utility), but that it is in fact in how it helps you to think better (the higher-order utility). The author, as decorated as he may be, seemingly fails to appreciate the latter: in his own words, he has a “very low opinion of this self-serving nonsense”. The exercise of fleshing out the argument against the higher-order value of mathematics, you will note, is left as an exercise to the reader. This is by definition an anti-intellectualist position: defending such a position, which goes contrary to what should be the default position in general, should require a very high burden of proof, not an offhand dismissal.
  - aozgaa 4y ago
    The author addresses the claim about “thinking better” in TFA.
    - epgui 4y ago
      No, he really doesn't. His argument against the higher-order value of mathematics is focused on first-order matters, and a vague allusion to an unspecified conflict of interest (?!). This essentially amounts to no more than "brushing off the argument".
  - ljhsiung 4y ago
    > The second argument is the one I always hear around the mathematics department: mathematics helps you to think clearly. I have a very low opinion of this self-serving nonsense. In sports there is the concept of the specificity of skills: if you want to improve your racquetball game, don’t practice squash! I believe the same holds true for intellectual skills. In any case, the case for transference of mathematical skills is unsettled. Directly from the article.
    - epgui 4y ago
      So in other words, his case against the higher order of mathematics is: - He doesn't have a high opinion of it - He makes a vague allusion to some unspecified conflict of interest (?!) - He argues that first-order skill development is most effective (which may be true, but misses the point). - He says that higher order value of mathematics is "unsettled". As he is defending a fundamentally anti-intellectual position, I'm going to need a little more than that.
- carlob 4y ago
  The fact that someone who is a university professor would remove their kids from the general education pool, makes me think they don't really understand one of the main purposes of education. If their kids were kept in normal schools with other kids, they may have published academically a few years later, but a lot of their peers would have had the privilege of studying with them and improved their academic lives because of that.
  - shakow 4y ago
    > but a lot of their peers would have had the privilege of studying with them If you need other students to successfully study, that's either yours or the educational system's failure; but other children shouldn't be dragged down for it.
    - carlob 4y ago
      Yeah, but that's not how things work in reality. There is a large number of studies on the positive effects of integration in education, from more extreme cases such as not having special schools for disabled children to the more mundane socioeconomic mixing. The consensus seems to be that the positive academic effect a smart kid gets from being put in some advanced school is trumped by the negative effect on the average kids. European countries with a strong egalitarian bend in their schooling system seem to do much better than the American ones and not just on average.
      - buescher 4y ago
        >European countries with a strong egalitarian bend in their schooling system Europe is not some fantasy-land where all the dreams of the American left come true. Most European countries track students into separate secondary schools based on their demonstrated academic ability. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_secondary_education_systems_by_country#Secondary_education_in_Europe https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_secondary_education_sy...
        carlob 4y ago
- buescher 4y ago
  That changes his whole argument to: "it's better for my kids if your kids don't learn math".
B1FF_PSUVM 4y ago
> anti-intellectualist drivel You're barking up the wrong tree. At worst it's elitist, not anti-intelectual: "The math myth is the myth that the future of the American economy is dependent upon the masses having higher mathematics skills." Just doubting the need for higher math skills to be massified, not against their being necessary, perhaps to an elite.
- epgui 4y ago
  I would agree with you if the author had indicated more clearly that that was his position. He is choosing to defend an extremely difficult position, and his argument is more a rhetorical flourish than anything.
  - 300bps 4y ago
    It’s literally the concluding sentence. I’m not sure if it would’ve been possible to indicate his position more clearly. Higher mathematics should be offered and taken by those who need it, or want it; but never required of all students. Also the author is a mathematics professor. He isn’t anti-intellectual. EDIT Wow. You posted ten angry comments in about 40 minutes. This seems to have hit a nerve.
    - epgui 4y ago
      Sorry, just to be clear: it's obvious that this is the position he is taking, but the substance of his reasoning, argument or rationale is lacking. The distinction between the two contrasting positions we're discussing, which are both compatible with the text you highlighted, is what is unclear. It doesn't matter who he is: the idea he's advancing is fundamentally an anti-intellectual one. It would be an anti-intellectual idea even if it came out of Einstein's mouth. Edit in response to edit: sorry if my comments give the appearance of anger, that is sincerely not my intended tone. I am admittedly very passionate about the issue of anti-intellectualism in society.
_hcuq 4y ago
Kids with no aptitude for math are being made miserable for years, some to the point of dropping out of education altogether. Isn’t that anti intellectual? Your blind dogmatism is also anti intellectual.
- nicoburns 4y ago
  While it's not the whole story, I've seen a lot more kids struggling with math due to poor teaching (often several years before the class they're currently taking) than due to lack of aptitude.
  - akira2501 4y ago
    So, we're trying to optimize a problem that we've built zero infrastructure for? That sounds like paving material for a road no one wants to actually take.
  - gexla 4y ago
    Is it really the teaching which makes the difference though? I struggled with math through all levels of school. As an adult, I struggled with with programming, but I was self taught. After putting in the hours, I eventually learned enough to make a living from it. I then realized, that maybe the students who did well with math put the same effort as I did in learning programming. The difference between math and programming for me is that I immediately saw the utility of learning programming.
    - SyzygistSix 4y ago
      In my experience it does. The ways math is taught differs a good bit from when I went to K-12. In my experience the differences in teachers, motivation, and teaching methods all made a significant difference.
- barry-cotter 4y ago
  That’s just school, nothing special about Math. The High School Study of Student Engagement has 17% of students bored in every class and 66% bored every day. Most people spend a large part of every day in school suffering. That’s what school is.
quantified 4y ago
Nothing there said it's not valuable. Just that it's not the acme of value for so many things. Critical reading and thinking skills are also at least as valuable. Not discussed is that statistics and logic are a much better use of instructional time than calculus for most students.
permo-w 4y ago
This is a terrible article. Besides the spelling errors and the repetition of "Excel and eighth grade level mathematics" 4 times in the first 4 paragraphs, it seems like a really really pure case of the author doing his best to rationalise an opinion that he's come to through intuition
dang 4y ago
Can you please not post flamewar comments to HN? You broke several site guidelines in this thread, including the ones that ask you not to call names in arguments, not to snark, and not to fulminate. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- epgui 4y ago
  Noted, I apologize. But I don't believe there was any name-calling, as I attempted to clarify in another comment: the "anti-intellectualist" label was intended to refer to the idea expressed in the article, not to the person who wrote it. (And even in the case where the label were attached to a person, it's not really an insult: I mean, it's definitely not a compliment, but to be clear, it says absolutely nothing of the person's intelligence, and rather speaks to their attitude towards "the pursuit of knowledge" in the abstract.) I recognize that my intended meaning was not as clear as it should have been in the root comment, but I hope I have clarified this anywhere else. This was careless phrasing, but there was no ill intent.
  - dang 4y ago
    I'm sure there was no ill intent! but "this is anti-intellectualist drivel" is name calling in the sense that the HN guidelines use the word; it doesn't have to be personal to qualify: "When disagreeing, please reply to the argument instead of calling names. 'That is idiotic; 1 + 1 is 2, not 3' can be shortened to '1 + 1 is 2, not 3." - https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html Thanks for the nice reply in any case.

by epgui 4y ago

barry-cotter 4y ago

> Perhaps if the author had a better attitude towards education and was capable of appreciating the value of mathematics (or more generally, science) in everyday life (to say nothing about the importance of this in democracies), then he would not hold this infantile opinion. Caplan has a doctorate, teaches at a university, has written several books and home educated two of his sons to a level where they published academically before they entered university. He’s also more well read in philosophy and literature than average though that is a low bar to clear. If you don’t think a professor of Mathematics, David Edwards, understands the value of Mathematics why do you think you do?

_hcuq 4y ago
A professor of mathematics would have a vested interest, don’t you think? Your logic is faulty,
- barry-cotter 4y ago
  Indeed, when someone argues against their own interests we should take them more seriously, not less. That Edwards thinks the main arguments for teaching advanced Math is garbage when that’s his livelihood should make us look at it closely.
  - epgui 4y ago
    Is he not a fully tenured, late-career professor? I doubt he has even an ounce of concern for job security.
  - kaba0 4y ago
    > someone argues against their own interests we should take them more seriously, not less. I'm not sure it is a good advice in general. All the quack "doctors" that go against the mainstream medicine are actually degree-earnt doctors, yet are just scams.
    - hnfong 4y ago
      If those doctors were to gain from scams then that's an example that corroborates the GP's argument, not a counter example as you seem to make of it. GP did not say "against their profession's interests", just their own.
epgui 4y ago
My argument is that the value of mathematics is not merely, or even principally, in whether it’s useful in everyday life (the first-order utility), but that it is in fact in how it helps you to think better (the higher-order utility). The author, as decorated as he may be, seemingly fails to appreciate the latter: in his own words, he has a “very low opinion of this self-serving nonsense”. The exercise of fleshing out the argument against the higher-order value of mathematics, you will note, is left as an exercise to the reader. This is by definition an anti-intellectualist position: defending such a position, which goes contrary to what should be the default position in general, should require a very high burden of proof, not an offhand dismissal.
- aozgaa 4y ago
  The author addresses the claim about “thinking better” in TFA.
  - epgui 4y ago
    No, he really doesn't. His argument against the higher-order value of mathematics is focused on first-order matters, and a vague allusion to an unspecified conflict of interest (?!). This essentially amounts to no more than "brushing off the argument".
- ljhsiung 4y ago
  > The second argument is the one I always hear around the mathematics department: mathematics helps you to think clearly. I have a very low opinion of this self-serving nonsense. In sports there is the concept of the specificity of skills: if you want to improve your racquetball game, don’t practice squash! I believe the same holds true for intellectual skills. In any case, the case for transference of mathematical skills is unsettled. Directly from the article.
  - epgui 4y ago
    So in other words, his case against the higher order of mathematics is: - He doesn't have a high opinion of it - He makes a vague allusion to some unspecified conflict of interest (?!) - He argues that first-order skill development is most effective (which may be true, but misses the point). - He says that higher order value of mathematics is "unsettled". As he is defending a fundamentally anti-intellectual position, I'm going to need a little more than that.
carlob 4y ago
The fact that someone who is a university professor would remove their kids from the general education pool, makes me think they don't really understand one of the main purposes of education. If their kids were kept in normal schools with other kids, they may have published academically a few years later, but a lot of their peers would have had the privilege of studying with them and improved their academic lives because of that.
- shakow 4y ago
  > but a lot of their peers would have had the privilege of studying with them If you need other students to successfully study, that's either yours or the educational system's failure; but other children shouldn't be dragged down for it.
  - carlob 4y ago
    Yeah, but that's not how things work in reality. There is a large number of studies on the positive effects of integration in education, from more extreme cases such as not having special schools for disabled children to the more mundane socioeconomic mixing. The consensus seems to be that the positive academic effect a smart kid gets from being put in some advanced school is trumped by the negative effect on the average kids. European countries with a strong egalitarian bend in their schooling system seem to do much better than the American ones and not just on average.
    - buescher 4y ago
      >European countries with a strong egalitarian bend in their schooling system Europe is not some fantasy-land where all the dreams of the American left come true. Most European countries track students into separate secondary schools based on their demonstrated academic ability. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_secondary_education_systems_by_country#Secondary_education_in_Europe https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_secondary_education_sy...
      - carlob 4y ago
buescher 4y ago
That changes his whole argument to: "it's better for my kids if your kids don't learn math".

B1FF_PSUVM 4y ago

> anti-intellectualist drivel You're barking up the wrong tree. At worst it's elitist, not anti-intelectual: "The math myth is the myth that the future of the American economy is dependent upon the masses having higher mathematics skills." Just doubting the need for higher math skills to be massified, not against their being necessary, perhaps to an elite.

epgui 4y ago
I would agree with you if the author had indicated more clearly that that was his position. He is choosing to defend an extremely difficult position, and his argument is more a rhetorical flourish than anything.
- 300bps 4y ago
  It’s literally the concluding sentence. I’m not sure if it would’ve been possible to indicate his position more clearly. Higher mathematics should be offered and taken by those who need it, or want it; but never required of all students. Also the author is a mathematics professor. He isn’t anti-intellectual. EDIT Wow. You posted ten angry comments in about 40 minutes. This seems to have hit a nerve.
  - epgui 4y ago
    Sorry, just to be clear: it's obvious that this is the position he is taking, but the substance of his reasoning, argument or rationale is lacking. The distinction between the two contrasting positions we're discussing, which are both compatible with the text you highlighted, is what is unclear. It doesn't matter who he is: the idea he's advancing is fundamentally an anti-intellectual one. It would be an anti-intellectual idea even if it came out of Einstein's mouth. Edit in response to edit: sorry if my comments give the appearance of anger, that is sincerely not my intended tone. I am admittedly very passionate about the issue of anti-intellectualism in society.

_hcuq 4y ago

Kids with no aptitude for math are being made miserable for years, some to the point of dropping out of education altogether. Isn’t that anti intellectual? Your blind dogmatism is also anti intellectual.

nicoburns 4y ago
While it's not the whole story, I've seen a lot more kids struggling with math due to poor teaching (often several years before the class they're currently taking) than due to lack of aptitude.
- akira2501 4y ago
  So, we're trying to optimize a problem that we've built zero infrastructure for? That sounds like paving material for a road no one wants to actually take.
- gexla 4y ago
  Is it really the teaching which makes the difference though? I struggled with math through all levels of school. As an adult, I struggled with with programming, but I was self taught. After putting in the hours, I eventually learned enough to make a living from it. I then realized, that maybe the students who did well with math put the same effort as I did in learning programming. The difference between math and programming for me is that I immediately saw the utility of learning programming.
  - SyzygistSix 4y ago
    In my experience it does. The ways math is taught differs a good bit from when I went to K-12. In my experience the differences in teachers, motivation, and teaching methods all made a significant difference.
barry-cotter 4y ago
That’s just school, nothing special about Math. The High School Study of Student Engagement has 17% of students bored in every class and 66% bored every day. Most people spend a large part of every day in school suffering. That’s what school is.

quantified 4y ago

Nothing there said it's not valuable. Just that it's not the acme of value for so many things. Critical reading and thinking skills are also at least as valuable. Not discussed is that statistics and logic are a much better use of instructional time than calculus for most students.

permo-w 4y ago

This is a terrible article. Besides the spelling errors and the repetition of "Excel and eighth grade level mathematics" 4 times in the first 4 paragraphs, it seems like a really really pure case of the author doing his best to rationalise an opinion that he's come to through intuition

dang 4y ago

Can you please not post flamewar comments to HN? You broke several site guidelines in this thread, including the ones that ask you not to call names in arguments, not to snark, and not to fulminate. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

epgui 4y ago
Noted, I apologize. But I don't believe there was any name-calling, as I attempted to clarify in another comment: the "anti-intellectualist" label was intended to refer to the idea expressed in the article, not to the person who wrote it. (And even in the case where the label were attached to a person, it's not really an insult: I mean, it's definitely not a compliment, but to be clear, it says absolutely nothing of the person's intelligence, and rather speaks to their attitude towards "the pursuit of knowledge" in the abstract.) I recognize that my intended meaning was not as clear as it should have been in the root comment, but I hope I have clarified this anywhere else. This was careless phrasing, but there was no ill intent.
- dang 4y ago
  I'm sure there was no ill intent! but "this is anti-intellectualist drivel" is name calling in the sense that the HN guidelines use the word; it doesn't have to be personal to qualify: "When disagreeing, please reply to the argument instead of calling names. 'That is idiotic; 1 + 1 is 2, not 3' can be shortened to '1 + 1 is 2, not 3." - https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html Thanks for the nice reply in any case.