5 ms·

Maybe a more digestible resource: https://www.reuters.com/world/americas/cubans-split-over-more-liberal-family-code-referendum-nears-2022-03-30/ https://www.reu

by anonu 4y ago

Maybe a more digestible resource: https://www.reuters.com/world/americas/cubans-split-over-more-liberal-family-code-referendum-nears-2022-03-30/ https://www.reuters.com/world/americas/cubans-split-over-mor... My quick read seems to me that these are things that exist in most developed Western societies today: same sex marriage, equal sharing of domestic responsibilities, prenuptial agreements, assisted pregnancy. There's probably more to it - but probably the more significant news is these concepts are taking root in Cuba?

pastacacioepepe 4y ago
[flagged]
- notch656a 4y ago
  - pastacacioepepe 4y ago
- ahahahahah 4y ago
  > Quick and incredibly shallow, yet the most prominent comment in the thread. > What is being discussed in Cuba goes beyond anything existing in the rest of the world Goes on to not give a single example of it going beyond anything existing in the rest of the world.
  - notch656a 4y ago
    [flagged]
  - foogazi 4y ago
    Parent mentions it in their post: this is not some law handed down from a court or imposed by Congress Cuba is redefining its family law all at once, not via piecemeal disjointed legislative “victories”, but via a public referendum that goes against the established culture
    - notch656a 4y ago
      How could that legislation be democratic if it goes against the established 'culture' the majority is in favor of? A democratic outcome would be one that follows the majority opinion that has been established. An outcome against the vote of the majority would not be 'democratic' (although it may be more equitable or better protect rights of minority). Of course, on the democratic side it's hard to really call a system democratic when merely conveying ideas results in jail time, such as "Ladies in White" who have been arrested for activity like holding up a sign in a park that says "stop hunger."
      - pastacacioepepe 4y ago
        You posted some very low effort answer you were ashamed of, canceled it AFTER I already answered you and now you post more nonsense and expect me to give you attention again?
        notch656a 4y ago
        Considering my reply was to foogazi and not yourself, you seem to be pretty presumptive regarding my desire for your 'attention' on this comment.
      - foogazi 4y ago
        Hey I hold no fantasies about some Cuban socialist utopia Reading the Reuters article it seems those meetings are being held countrywide - and that is a different way of doing things Maybe it generates consensus, maybe younger cubans are not beholden to the old social norms Maybe it’s all fake - I don’t know
    - tfsss78e 4y ago
      I'm afraid you're not familiar with how things work in Cuba. In short, you mustn't believe much of what you read on Granma, which is the official newspaper, fully controlled by the government. It's not free press, it's a government propaganda machine. No one can publish a response or contradicting article there, or in any other newspaper in Cuba. There is even legislation to prevent what they call "free press" online. What this article refers to as a "democratic process" is in reality a quick assembly at work places and your neighborhood, organised by the government and the only legal party (the Cuban Communist Party). Assistance is mandatory, or you risk losing your job or place at university. Voting against will have the same consequences. So, yes, a lot of people were asked if they were in favour or against the new family code, but they were all coerced. More importantly, those people cannot choose their own government because only one party is allowed in the country, and a huge repressive state controls their every move.
  - pastacacioepepe 4y ago
    I mean can you read? Then go ahead and read the article. Why should I do your job for you?
- gus_massa 4y ago
  > What is being discussed in Cuba goes beyond anything existing in the rest of the world, but the most astounding thing is how democratic the process is. We had something similar to discuss Education in Argentina in 1984-1988, it was called "Congreso Pedagógico Nacional". There were a huge number of meetings in each school and they selected delegates for the next step, and after a few steps all the delegates were members of the different political parties or the church. So the final steps were more political and with very few grassroots participation. Some articles about it in Spanish: * https://www.lanacion.com.ar/cultura/en-los-80-mas-politica-que-pedagogia-nid1412898/ https://www.lanacion.com.ar/cultura/en-los-80-mas-politica-q... autotranslation https://www-lanacion-com-ar.translate.goog/cultura/en-los-80-mas-politica-que-pedagogia-nid1412898/?_x_tr_sl=es&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en&_x_tr_pto=wapp https://www-lanacion-com-ar.translate.goog/cultura/en-los-80... > Twenty-seven years after that call, in which 400,000 people participated, two conclusions emerge. In these meetings, little is said about pedagogy and much about educational policy (and generally more about politics than education). The second lesson is that already at that time there was talk of a profound educational crisis. * https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historia_de_la_educaci%C3%B3n_en_Argentina#Segundo_Congreso_Pedag%C3%B3gico_Nacional_de_1984 https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historia_de_la_educaci%C3%B3n_... autotranslation https://es-m-wikipedia-org.translate.goog/wiki/Historia_de_la_educaci%C3%B3n_en_Argentina?_x_tr_sl=es&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en&_x_tr_pto=wapp#Segundo_Congreso_Pedag%C3%B3gico_Nacional_de_1984 https://es-m-wikipedia-org.translate.goog/wiki/Historia_de_l... > Raúl Alfonsín entrusted the organization of the congress to his educational team, headed in 1984 by Minister Carlos Alconada Aramburú , and Deputy Adolfo Stubrin, both with statist approaches. The Statist Approach was driven by radicals and communists ; and the non-statist approach, which was finally the one that triumphed, was defended by the Argentine Episcopal Conference , the Christian Democratic Party , the Justicialist Party , the Union of the Democratic Center , the Integration and Development Movement and a huge mobilization of parents who had their children in private schools. 400,000 people participated in that call.
  - pastacacioepepe 4y ago
    It might not be a case then, if Argentina is one of the countries with a highest perception of democracy among its citizens.
- anonu 4y ago
  > incredibly shallow No need to throw shade. If I come across granma.cu which bills itself as "OFFICIAL VOICE OF THE COMMUNIST PARTY OF CUBA CENTRAL COMMITTEE", I'd like to get another perspective. Not that Reuters is necessarily that perspective... but it is most likely a more neutral source. > USA states cancel abortion rights with unilateral decisions from the top, while the population protests in disbelief. I would argue that's a very shallow (and incorrect) perception of the abortion debate in the US.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - pastacacioepepe 4y ago
    Even once you read Reuters you still decided to go for a very shallow view. Reuters explains a lot of stuff, but you only cherry picked what was supporting the idea that Cuba is inferior to the democracy you live in.
    - notch656a 4y ago
      One of Castro's favorite methods of redirecting criticism against Cuba was to explain that the US did as bad or worse. I'm quite sure the US has done many worse things than Cuba. However that doesn't absolve criticisms of Cuba, especially some particularly egregious flaws that cast into doubt its 'democratic' process.

by anonu 4y ago

pastacacioepepe 4y ago

[flagged]

notch656a 4y ago
- pastacacioepepe 4y ago
ahahahahah 4y ago
> Quick and incredibly shallow, yet the most prominent comment in the thread. > What is being discussed in Cuba goes beyond anything existing in the rest of the world Goes on to not give a single example of it going beyond anything existing in the rest of the world.
- notch656a 4y ago
  [flagged]
- foogazi 4y ago
  Parent mentions it in their post: this is not some law handed down from a court or imposed by Congress Cuba is redefining its family law all at once, not via piecemeal disjointed legislative “victories”, but via a public referendum that goes against the established culture
  - notch656a 4y ago
    How could that legislation be democratic if it goes against the established 'culture' the majority is in favor of? A democratic outcome would be one that follows the majority opinion that has been established. An outcome against the vote of the majority would not be 'democratic' (although it may be more equitable or better protect rights of minority). Of course, on the democratic side it's hard to really call a system democratic when merely conveying ideas results in jail time, such as "Ladies in White" who have been arrested for activity like holding up a sign in a park that says "stop hunger."
    - pastacacioepepe 4y ago
      You posted some very low effort answer you were ashamed of, canceled it AFTER I already answered you and now you post more nonsense and expect me to give you attention again?
      - notch656a 4y ago
        Considering my reply was to foogazi and not yourself, you seem to be pretty presumptive regarding my desire for your 'attention' on this comment.
    - foogazi 4y ago
      Hey I hold no fantasies about some Cuban socialist utopia Reading the Reuters article it seems those meetings are being held countrywide - and that is a different way of doing things Maybe it generates consensus, maybe younger cubans are not beholden to the old social norms Maybe it’s all fake - I don’t know
  - tfsss78e 4y ago
    I'm afraid you're not familiar with how things work in Cuba. In short, you mustn't believe much of what you read on Granma, which is the official newspaper, fully controlled by the government. It's not free press, it's a government propaganda machine. No one can publish a response or contradicting article there, or in any other newspaper in Cuba. There is even legislation to prevent what they call "free press" online. What this article refers to as a "democratic process" is in reality a quick assembly at work places and your neighborhood, organised by the government and the only legal party (the Cuban Communist Party). Assistance is mandatory, or you risk losing your job or place at university. Voting against will have the same consequences. So, yes, a lot of people were asked if they were in favour or against the new family code, but they were all coerced. More importantly, those people cannot choose their own government because only one party is allowed in the country, and a huge repressive state controls their every move.
- pastacacioepepe 4y ago
  I mean can you read? Then go ahead and read the article. Why should I do your job for you?
gus_massa 4y ago
> What is being discussed in Cuba goes beyond anything existing in the rest of the world, but the most astounding thing is how democratic the process is. We had something similar to discuss Education in Argentina in 1984-1988, it was called "Congreso Pedagógico Nacional". There were a huge number of meetings in each school and they selected delegates for the next step, and after a few steps all the delegates were members of the different political parties or the church. So the final steps were more political and with very few grassroots participation. Some articles about it in Spanish: * https://www.lanacion.com.ar/cultura/en-los-80-mas-politica-que-pedagogia-nid1412898/ https://www.lanacion.com.ar/cultura/en-los-80-mas-politica-q... autotranslation https://www-lanacion-com-ar.translate.goog/cultura/en-los-80-mas-politica-que-pedagogia-nid1412898/?_x_tr_sl=es&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en&_x_tr_pto=wapp https://www-lanacion-com-ar.translate.goog/cultura/en-los-80... > Twenty-seven years after that call, in which 400,000 people participated, two conclusions emerge. In these meetings, little is said about pedagogy and much about educational policy (and generally more about politics than education). The second lesson is that already at that time there was talk of a profound educational crisis. * https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historia_de_la_educaci%C3%B3n_en_Argentina#Segundo_Congreso_Pedag%C3%B3gico_Nacional_de_1984 https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historia_de_la_educaci%C3%B3n_... autotranslation https://es-m-wikipedia-org.translate.goog/wiki/Historia_de_la_educaci%C3%B3n_en_Argentina?_x_tr_sl=es&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en&_x_tr_pto=wapp#Segundo_Congreso_Pedag%C3%B3gico_Nacional_de_1984 https://es-m-wikipedia-org.translate.goog/wiki/Historia_de_l... > Raúl Alfonsín entrusted the organization of the congress to his educational team, headed in 1984 by Minister Carlos Alconada Aramburú , and Deputy Adolfo Stubrin, both with statist approaches. The Statist Approach was driven by radicals and communists ; and the non-statist approach, which was finally the one that triumphed, was defended by the Argentine Episcopal Conference , the Christian Democratic Party , the Justicialist Party , the Union of the Democratic Center , the Integration and Development Movement and a huge mobilization of parents who had their children in private schools. 400,000 people participated in that call.
- pastacacioepepe 4y ago
  It might not be a case then, if Argentina is one of the countries with a highest perception of democracy among its citizens.
anonu 4y ago
> incredibly shallow No need to throw shade. If I come across granma.cu which bills itself as "OFFICIAL VOICE OF THE COMMUNIST PARTY OF CUBA CENTRAL COMMITTEE", I'd like to get another perspective. Not that Reuters is necessarily that perspective... but it is most likely a more neutral source. > USA states cancel abortion rights with unilateral decisions from the top, while the population protests in disbelief. I would argue that's a very shallow (and incorrect) perception of the abortion debate in the US.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- pastacacioepepe 4y ago
  Even once you read Reuters you still decided to go for a very shallow view. Reuters explains a lot of stuff, but you only cherry picked what was supporting the idea that Cuba is inferior to the democracy you live in.
  - notch656a 4y ago
    One of Castro's favorite methods of redirecting criticism against Cuba was to explain that the US did as bad or worse. I'm quite sure the US has done many worse things than Cuba. However that doesn't absolve criticisms of Cuba, especially some particularly egregious flaws that cast into doubt its 'democratic' process.