8 ms·

Cuba about to adopt the most progressive family law in the world

26 points by trasz 4y ago

anonu 4y ago
Maybe a more digestible resource: https://www.reuters.com/world/americas/cubans-split-over-more-liberal-family-code-referendum-nears-2022-03-30/ https://www.reuters.com/world/americas/cubans-split-over-mor... My quick read seems to me that these are things that exist in most developed Western societies today: same sex marriage, equal sharing of domestic responsibilities, prenuptial agreements, assisted pregnancy. There's probably more to it - but probably the more significant news is these concepts are taking root in Cuba?
- pastacacioepepe 4y ago
  [flagged]
  - notch656a 4y ago
    - pastacacioepepe 4y ago
  - ahahahahah 4y ago
    > Quick and incredibly shallow, yet the most prominent comment in the thread. > What is being discussed in Cuba goes beyond anything existing in the rest of the world Goes on to not give a single example of it going beyond anything existing in the rest of the world.
    - notch656a 4y ago
      [flagged]
    - foogazi 4y ago
      Parent mentions it in their post: this is not some law handed down from a court or imposed by Congress Cuba is redefining its family law all at once, not via piecemeal disjointed legislative “victories”, but via a public referendum that goes against the established culture
      - notch656a 4y ago
        How could that legislation be democratic if it goes against the established 'culture' the majority is in favor of? A democratic outcome would be one that follows the majority opinion that has been established. An outcome against the vote of the majority would not be 'democratic' (although it may be more equitable or better protect rights of minority). Of course, on the democratic side it's hard to really call a system democratic when merely conveying ideas results in jail time, such as "Ladies in White" who have been arrested for activity like holding up a sign in a park that says "stop hunger."
        pastacacioepepe 4y ago
        You posted some very low effort answer you were ashamed of, canceled it AFTER I already answered you and now you post more nonsense and expect me to give you attention again?
        notch656a 4y ago
        Considering my reply was to foogazi and not yourself, you seem to be pretty presumptive regarding my desire for your 'attention' on this comment.
        foogazi 4y ago
        Hey I hold no fantasies about some Cuban socialist utopia Reading the Reuters article it seems those meetings are being held countrywide - and that is a different way of doing things Maybe it generates consensus, maybe younger cubans are not beholden to the old social norms Maybe it’s all fake - I don’t know
      - tfsss78e 4y ago
    - pastacacioepepe 4y ago
      I mean can you read? Then go ahead and read the article. Why should I do your job for you?
  - gus_massa 4y ago
    > What is being discussed in Cuba goes beyond anything existing in the rest of the world, but the most astounding thing is how democratic the process is. We had something similar to discuss Education in Argentina in 1984-1988, it was called "Congreso Pedagógico Nacional". There were a huge number of meetings in each school and they selected delegates for the next step, and after a few steps all the delegates were members of the different political parties or the church. So the final steps were more political and with very few grassroots participation. Some articles about it in Spanish: * https://www.lanacion.com.ar/cultura/en-los-80-mas-politica-que-pedagogia-nid1412898/ https://www.lanacion.com.ar/cultura/en-los-80-mas-politica-q... autotranslation https://www-lanacion-com-ar.translate.goog/cultura/en-los-80-mas-politica-que-pedagogia-nid1412898/?_x_tr_sl=es&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en&_x_tr_pto=wapp https://www-lanacion-com-ar.translate.goog/cultura/en-los-80... > Twenty-seven years after that call, in which 400,000 people participated, two conclusions emerge. In these meetings, little is said about pedagogy and much about educational policy (and generally more about politics than education). The second lesson is that already at that time there was talk of a profound educational crisis. * https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historia_de_la_educaci%C3%B3n_en_Argentina#Segundo_Congreso_Pedag%C3%B3gico_Nacional_de_1984 https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historia_de_la_educaci%C3%B3n_... autotranslation https://es-m-wikipedia-org.translate.goog/wiki/Historia_de_la_educaci%C3%B3n_en_Argentina?_x_tr_sl=es&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en&_x_tr_pto=wapp#Segundo_Congreso_Pedag%C3%B3gico_Nacional_de_1984 https://es-m-wikipedia-org.translate.goog/wiki/Historia_de_l... > Raúl Alfonsín entrusted the organization of the congress to his educational team, headed in 1984 by Minister Carlos Alconada Aramburú , and Deputy Adolfo Stubrin, both with statist approaches. The Statist Approach was driven by radicals and communists ; and the non-statist approach, which was finally the one that triumphed, was defended by the Argentine Episcopal Conference , the Christian Democratic Party , the Justicialist Party , the Union of the Democratic Center , the Integration and Development Movement and a huge mobilization of parents who had their children in private schools. 400,000 people participated in that call.
    - pastacacioepepe 4y ago
      It might not be a case then, if Argentina is one of the countries with a highest perception of democracy among its citizens.
  - anonu 4y ago
    > incredibly shallow No need to throw shade. If I come across granma.cu which bills itself as "OFFICIAL VOICE OF THE COMMUNIST PARTY OF CUBA CENTRAL COMMITTEE", I'd like to get another perspective. Not that Reuters is necessarily that perspective... but it is most likely a more neutral source. > USA states cancel abortion rights with unilateral decisions from the top, while the population protests in disbelief. I would argue that's a very shallow (and incorrect) perception of the abortion debate in the US.
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
    - pastacacioepepe 4y ago
      Even once you read Reuters you still decided to go for a very shallow view. Reuters explains a lot of stuff, but you only cherry picked what was supporting the idea that Cuba is inferior to the democracy you live in.
      - notch656a 4y ago
        One of Castro's favorite methods of redirecting criticism against Cuba was to explain that the US did as bad or worse. I'm quite sure the US has done many worse things than Cuba. However that doesn't absolve criticisms of Cuba, especially some particularly egregious flaws that cast into doubt its 'democratic' process.
joebob42 4y ago
"About to adopt" sounds pretty far from accurate to my reading of the two sources? It sounds like this is still under substantial debate.
cuteboy19 4y ago
[flagged]
- slg 4y ago
  Lots of countries were doing very bad things 60 years ago. Lots of countries were doing very bad things yesterday. That shouldn't stop us from celebrating when one of those countries stops doing those bad things or makes progress to treat people more fairly.
  - cuteboy19 4y ago
    Except that nothing has changed. People don't have the right to protest or to vote. It's still the same authoritarian government with a nice coat of pink. Coincidentally this changes very little for the islands lgbt community which is still quite persecuted (by the government no less)
- egypturnash 4y ago
  So... they've gone from "gays go into camps" to "gays can have all the rights of family". That sounds like progress to be celebrated to me. It's sixty years later and things are getting better, hooray? I mean, any discussion of shit getting better in the USA sure has a laundry list of atrocities you can dig up too.
  - s5300 4y ago
    Yeah, gay marriage, of all places, wasn’t even legalized in California until 2008
- _dw7s 4y ago
  There are only 31 countries in the world that respect marriage equality. The fact that Cuba is going to be 32, in front of half of continental Europe is a good thing for Cuba. > This is the same communist party that put gay people in concentration camps in the 1960s. There are still parents in the USA who are currently sending their kids to gay conversion camps. I don't understand your point.
listic 4y ago
To date no "most progressive family law in the world" has touched the legalization of polyamory; why so? The only thing that comes to mind is that it would become too convenient a loophole to escape taxes.
- tasty_freeze 4y ago
  When the US legalized gay marriage (at least for now), one of the talking points against it was that men could marry their sons to avoid the inheritance tax, the same idea you are talking about. But the fact is fathers could marry their daughters and mothers could marry their sons to avoid taxes before that law was passed, yet it wasn't done. It was all just a smokescreen. The other funny thing was that the people against gay marriage by and large were also against inheritance taxes, so you'd think they'd applaud a new loophole.
  - travisathougies 4y ago
    > But the fact is fathers could marry their daughters and mothers could marry their sons to avoid taxes before that law was passed, yet it wasn't done. No fathers cannot marry their children. Nor can mothers. That is illegal in every state I believe.
    - trasz 4y ago
      That's true: in US you can legally marry a child ("the youngest girls to marry in 2000-2010 were three Tennessee 10-year-old girls who married men aged 24, 25, and 31, respectively, in 2001", https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_marriage_in_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_marriage_in_the_United_S...), but not your own child. Although I'm sure there are ways around it if you are wealthy enough. (ps "Human Rights Watch pointed out that Afghanistan has a tougher law on child marriage than parts of the United States")
      - travisathougies 4y ago
        Tennessee law has changed and there are now minimum ages. Surprisingly, there is no minimum age in CA; it's up to the courts.
clarionbell 4y ago
One has to wonder at naivety of some people. Listen, I know modern media made us jaded and mistrusting by default, so this might get brushed under carpet as "Well all politicians lie." but countries like Cuba take propaganda to another level. The default stance when reading any of their official news source, as it was in Czechoslovakia several decades ago, is to believe the opposite. And all news sources are official news sources. There are no evil capitalists, remember? So no privately owned printers, TV studios etc. By default everything is state owned or controlled. And state has a single party in charge, by law. Calling any process in that sort of state "democratic" is about as sensible as calling Amazon union friendly. Actually, that's a fitting analogy. Consider a company town, single employer, running everything. Mayor and councilors are managers on company payroll. And nobody can start a new business unless they have a go ahead from them. The town also makes it's own laws. By the way, the town has a jail and people can be, and routinely are, locked up in there for disagreeing with how things are run. What kind of democratic debate can you have in a place like that?
- trasz 4y ago
  You are right in regards to Cuba. You are wrong by assuming it’s any better in, say, US.
  - bstr_ 4y ago
    Yes, that makes sense. It's just as bad in the US. Ok.
  - kcplate 4y ago
    It’s funny, I live in the US and have been publicly critical of various aspects of the last 7 presidents and no one has jailed me yet for that criticism or even threatened me in any way.
    - pastacacioepepe 4y ago
      Hello Assange? Hello Snowden??
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

26 points by trasz 4y ago

Maybe a more digestible resource: https://www.reuters.com/world/americas/cubans-split-over-more-liberal-family-code-referendum-nears-2022-03-30/ https://www.reuters.com/world/americas/cubans-split-over-mor... My quick read seems to me that these are things that exist in most developed Western societies today: same sex marriage, equal sharing of domestic responsibilities, prenuptial agreements, assisted pregnancy. There's probably more to it - but probably the more significant news is these concepts are taking root in Cuba?

pastacacioepepe 4y ago
[flagged]
- notch656a 4y ago
  - pastacacioepepe 4y ago
- ahahahahah 4y ago
  > Quick and incredibly shallow, yet the most prominent comment in the thread. > What is being discussed in Cuba goes beyond anything existing in the rest of the world Goes on to not give a single example of it going beyond anything existing in the rest of the world.
  - notch656a 4y ago
    [flagged]
  - foogazi 4y ago
    Parent mentions it in their post: this is not some law handed down from a court or imposed by Congress Cuba is redefining its family law all at once, not via piecemeal disjointed legislative “victories”, but via a public referendum that goes against the established culture
    - notch656a 4y ago
      How could that legislation be democratic if it goes against the established 'culture' the majority is in favor of? A democratic outcome would be one that follows the majority opinion that has been established. An outcome against the vote of the majority would not be 'democratic' (although it may be more equitable or better protect rights of minority). Of course, on the democratic side it's hard to really call a system democratic when merely conveying ideas results in jail time, such as "Ladies in White" who have been arrested for activity like holding up a sign in a park that says "stop hunger."
      - pastacacioepepe 4y ago
        You posted some very low effort answer you were ashamed of, canceled it AFTER I already answered you and now you post more nonsense and expect me to give you attention again?
        notch656a 4y ago
        Considering my reply was to foogazi and not yourself, you seem to be pretty presumptive regarding my desire for your 'attention' on this comment.
      - foogazi 4y ago
        Hey I hold no fantasies about some Cuban socialist utopia Reading the Reuters article it seems those meetings are being held countrywide - and that is a different way of doing things Maybe it generates consensus, maybe younger cubans are not beholden to the old social norms Maybe it’s all fake - I don’t know
    - tfsss78e 4y ago
  - pastacacioepepe 4y ago
    I mean can you read? Then go ahead and read the article. Why should I do your job for you?
- gus_massa 4y ago
  > What is being discussed in Cuba goes beyond anything existing in the rest of the world, but the most astounding thing is how democratic the process is. We had something similar to discuss Education in Argentina in 1984-1988, it was called "Congreso Pedagógico Nacional". There were a huge number of meetings in each school and they selected delegates for the next step, and after a few steps all the delegates were members of the different political parties or the church. So the final steps were more political and with very few grassroots participation. Some articles about it in Spanish: * https://www.lanacion.com.ar/cultura/en-los-80-mas-politica-que-pedagogia-nid1412898/ https://www.lanacion.com.ar/cultura/en-los-80-mas-politica-q... autotranslation https://www-lanacion-com-ar.translate.goog/cultura/en-los-80-mas-politica-que-pedagogia-nid1412898/?_x_tr_sl=es&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en&_x_tr_pto=wapp https://www-lanacion-com-ar.translate.goog/cultura/en-los-80... > Twenty-seven years after that call, in which 400,000 people participated, two conclusions emerge. In these meetings, little is said about pedagogy and much about educational policy (and generally more about politics than education). The second lesson is that already at that time there was talk of a profound educational crisis. * https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historia_de_la_educaci%C3%B3n_en_Argentina#Segundo_Congreso_Pedag%C3%B3gico_Nacional_de_1984 https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historia_de_la_educaci%C3%B3n_... autotranslation https://es-m-wikipedia-org.translate.goog/wiki/Historia_de_la_educaci%C3%B3n_en_Argentina?_x_tr_sl=es&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en&_x_tr_pto=wapp#Segundo_Congreso_Pedag%C3%B3gico_Nacional_de_1984 https://es-m-wikipedia-org.translate.goog/wiki/Historia_de_l... > Raúl Alfonsín entrusted the organization of the congress to his educational team, headed in 1984 by Minister Carlos Alconada Aramburú , and Deputy Adolfo Stubrin, both with statist approaches. The Statist Approach was driven by radicals and communists ; and the non-statist approach, which was finally the one that triumphed, was defended by the Argentine Episcopal Conference , the Christian Democratic Party , the Justicialist Party , the Union of the Democratic Center , the Integration and Development Movement and a huge mobilization of parents who had their children in private schools. 400,000 people participated in that call.
  - pastacacioepepe 4y ago
    It might not be a case then, if Argentina is one of the countries with a highest perception of democracy among its citizens.
- anonu 4y ago
  > incredibly shallow No need to throw shade. If I come across granma.cu which bills itself as "OFFICIAL VOICE OF THE COMMUNIST PARTY OF CUBA CENTRAL COMMITTEE", I'd like to get another perspective. Not that Reuters is necessarily that perspective... but it is most likely a more neutral source. > USA states cancel abortion rights with unilateral decisions from the top, while the population protests in disbelief. I would argue that's a very shallow (and incorrect) perception of the abortion debate in the US.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - pastacacioepepe 4y ago
    Even once you read Reuters you still decided to go for a very shallow view. Reuters explains a lot of stuff, but you only cherry picked what was supporting the idea that Cuba is inferior to the democracy you live in.
    - notch656a 4y ago
      One of Castro's favorite methods of redirecting criticism against Cuba was to explain that the US did as bad or worse. I'm quite sure the US has done many worse things than Cuba. However that doesn't absolve criticisms of Cuba, especially some particularly egregious flaws that cast into doubt its 'democratic' process.

joebob42 4y ago

"About to adopt" sounds pretty far from accurate to my reading of the two sources? It sounds like this is still under substantial debate.

cuteboy19 4y ago

[flagged]

slg 4y ago
Lots of countries were doing very bad things 60 years ago. Lots of countries were doing very bad things yesterday. That shouldn't stop us from celebrating when one of those countries stops doing those bad things or makes progress to treat people more fairly.
- cuteboy19 4y ago
  Except that nothing has changed. People don't have the right to protest or to vote. It's still the same authoritarian government with a nice coat of pink. Coincidentally this changes very little for the islands lgbt community which is still quite persecuted (by the government no less)
egypturnash 4y ago
So... they've gone from "gays go into camps" to "gays can have all the rights of family". That sounds like progress to be celebrated to me. It's sixty years later and things are getting better, hooray? I mean, any discussion of shit getting better in the USA sure has a laundry list of atrocities you can dig up too.
- s5300 4y ago
  Yeah, gay marriage, of all places, wasn’t even legalized in California until 2008
_dw7s 4y ago
There are only 31 countries in the world that respect marriage equality. The fact that Cuba is going to be 32, in front of half of continental Europe is a good thing for Cuba. > This is the same communist party that put gay people in concentration camps in the 1960s. There are still parents in the USA who are currently sending their kids to gay conversion camps. I don't understand your point.

listic 4y ago

To date no "most progressive family law in the world" has touched the legalization of polyamory; why so? The only thing that comes to mind is that it would become too convenient a loophole to escape taxes.

tasty_freeze 4y ago
When the US legalized gay marriage (at least for now), one of the talking points against it was that men could marry their sons to avoid the inheritance tax, the same idea you are talking about. But the fact is fathers could marry their daughters and mothers could marry their sons to avoid taxes before that law was passed, yet it wasn't done. It was all just a smokescreen. The other funny thing was that the people against gay marriage by and large were also against inheritance taxes, so you'd think they'd applaud a new loophole.
- travisathougies 4y ago
  > But the fact is fathers could marry their daughters and mothers could marry their sons to avoid taxes before that law was passed, yet it wasn't done. No fathers cannot marry their children. Nor can mothers. That is illegal in every state I believe.
  - trasz 4y ago
    That's true: in US you can legally marry a child ("the youngest girls to marry in 2000-2010 were three Tennessee 10-year-old girls who married men aged 24, 25, and 31, respectively, in 2001", https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_marriage_in_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_marriage_in_the_United_S...), but not your own child. Although I'm sure there are ways around it if you are wealthy enough. (ps "Human Rights Watch pointed out that Afghanistan has a tougher law on child marriage than parts of the United States")
    - travisathougies 4y ago
      Tennessee law has changed and there are now minimum ages. Surprisingly, there is no minimum age in CA; it's up to the courts.

clarionbell 4y ago

One has to wonder at naivety of some people. Listen, I know modern media made us jaded and mistrusting by default, so this might get brushed under carpet as "Well all politicians lie." but countries like Cuba take propaganda to another level. The default stance when reading any of their official news source, as it was in Czechoslovakia several decades ago, is to believe the opposite. And all news sources are official news sources. There are no evil capitalists, remember? So no privately owned printers, TV studios etc. By default everything is state owned or controlled. And state has a single party in charge, by law. Calling any process in that sort of state "democratic" is about as sensible as calling Amazon union friendly. Actually, that's a fitting analogy. Consider a company town, single employer, running everything. Mayor and councilors are managers on company payroll. And nobody can start a new business unless they have a go ahead from them. The town also makes it's own laws. By the way, the town has a jail and people can be, and routinely are, locked up in there for disagreeing with how things are run. What kind of democratic debate can you have in a place like that?

trasz 4y ago
You are right in regards to Cuba. You are wrong by assuming it’s any better in, say, US.
- bstr_ 4y ago
  Yes, that makes sense. It's just as bad in the US. Ok.
- kcplate 4y ago
  It’s funny, I live in the US and have been publicly critical of various aspects of the last 7 presidents and no one has jailed me yet for that criticism or even threatened me in any way.
  - pastacacioepepe 4y ago
    Hello Assange? Hello Snowden??

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]