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There are practical considerations. You need top end device with mobile connections to drive experience similar to Carplay or Android Auto with fancy map animat

There are practical considerations. You need top end device with mobile connections to drive experience similar to Carplay or Android Auto with fancy map animation, fast touch response time and music streaming apps. That device cost at least $700+. Nobody wants to use slow as death chromecast like IoT to drive car experience when you have phone in your pocket. Why build something when there is no demand? Besides there are all sorts of security consideration in not allowing random devices to change to many things in the car.

rektide 4y ago
> You need top end device with mobile connections to drive experience similar to Carplay or Android Auto with fancy map animation, fast touch response time and music streaming apps. That device cost at least $700+. I'm pretty sure a boring $50 Chromecast could drive this experience just fine & without challenge. An 8-core ARM chip with a decent GPU is remarkably affordable in this day & age, and more capable than most people realize. It would be significantly different to try to drive multiple experiences at once, versus a Chromecast which runs a single app at a time. But there are just so many cores now. Even if they're low performance Cortex-A510, I don't see the need for big CPU. And nothing I've seen on any of these videos gives me the feeling big complicated GPUs are necessary: the whole thing experience is powered by pretty lo-fi simple Widgets, "glancable" experiences.
- AlotOfReading 4y ago
  8 core ARMs aren't typically automotive grade and that's the expensive bit. An automotive grade iMX.8 with 4 A53 cores runs somewhere around $100. You could step down to the old iMX.6Qs (the product line your infotainment probably already uses), but they're still $60ish/ea.
  - rektide 4y ago
    > 8 core ARMs aren't typically automotive grade and that's the expensive bit. An automotive grade iMX.8 with 4 A53 cores runs somewhere around $100. I think we're into splitting hairs territory. You're right, automotive industry is typically unbelievably crazy far behind, and accounting for that is a pain. ARM in general has made me very very very sad for a decade of non-delivery now. Cortex A53 turns 10 years old in October. ARM still doesn't have any replacements actually shipping that are really any better- A55 was like a 5-15% boost (a real stinker), A510 isn't actually shipping yet, & who knows if it'll really be better this time, another sad repeat of A55. But I don't think it changes my arguments or belief significantly. We could easily not-suck if we wanted to. Some big car company could go work with a foundry or hyperscaler & decide to kick out a lower-middle speed automotive ARM chip, which would cost very very little. I think it's also conceivable that simply using an extended temperature range chip & being a lot more careful about power regulation & noise tolerance is perfectly doable. Let's look at the parent: > You need top end device with mobile connections to drive experience similar to Carplay or Android Auto with fancy map animation, fast touch response time and music streaming apps. That device cost at least $700+. If we evaluate your critique a little more, look around, we can go further with your arguments: anything decent and Automotive-grade is not available, at any price. No one cares, no one buys it, no one makes it. Right now. Anyhow I was just throwing out numbers. You're right, we might not have 8 cores to throw around right now. Maybe only 4. A Google TV runs off a Allwinner S905D3 with slow quad A55 and low end G31MP2. It still runs a decent 4K, is pretty fast & responsive (hindered largely by flash speed). It's barely warm to the touch. The gist was: even basic cheap computers are quite fast & capable, and you're pointing out that automotive prices are high. I have to add that there are no high end cores for automotive right now, at any price, and generally just automotive is vastly under-served. But I think, ultimately, there's probably still plenty enough oomph to run a system like this, with whatever we've got.
    - AlotOfReading 4y ago
      I'm not as optimistic as you about the technical capabilities of OEMs and Tier 1s at designing good silicon and software. They're monstrously good at producing millions of thingsthat will survive the most horrendous conditions imaginable at surprisingly economical prices, but terrible at modern electronics and software. That inability keeps me employed, so slight bias here. As for simply using extended range components, Tesla actually did that for several years of the Model S infotainment system. Turned out that wasn't enough and the components started failing after a couple years [1]. [1] https://www.thedrive.com/tech/27989/teslas-screen-saga-shows-why-automotive-grade-matters https://www.thedrive.com/tech/27989/teslas-screen-saga-shows...
      - rektide 4y ago
        The screen is 100% not what I would skimp on, as they have immense mechanical wear applied to them in a car. Tesla also famously uses AMD processors in their cars; unless it's a well kept secret, AMD doesn't make any automotive parts. I would not be surprised to see ruggedized electrical defense combined with consumer application processors be fairly widespread in today's vehicles.
        fomine3 4y ago
        For durability, some car manufacturers start adopting OLED screen. I wonder how long is it lasts.

rektide 4y ago

> You need top end device with mobile connections to drive experience similar to Carplay or Android Auto with fancy map animation, fast touch response time and music streaming apps. That device cost at least $700+. I'm pretty sure a boring $50 Chromecast could drive this experience just fine & without challenge. An 8-core ARM chip with a decent GPU is remarkably affordable in this day & age, and more capable than most people realize. It would be significantly different to try to drive multiple experiences at once, versus a Chromecast which runs a single app at a time. But there are just so many cores now. Even if they're low performance Cortex-A510, I don't see the need for big CPU. And nothing I've seen on any of these videos gives me the feeling big complicated GPUs are necessary: the whole thing experience is powered by pretty lo-fi simple Widgets, "glancable" experiences.

AlotOfReading 4y ago
8 core ARMs aren't typically automotive grade and that's the expensive bit. An automotive grade iMX.8 with 4 A53 cores runs somewhere around $100. You could step down to the old iMX.6Qs (the product line your infotainment probably already uses), but they're still $60ish/ea.
- rektide 4y ago
  > 8 core ARMs aren't typically automotive grade and that's the expensive bit. An automotive grade iMX.8 with 4 A53 cores runs somewhere around $100. I think we're into splitting hairs territory. You're right, automotive industry is typically unbelievably crazy far behind, and accounting for that is a pain. ARM in general has made me very very very sad for a decade of non-delivery now. Cortex A53 turns 10 years old in October. ARM still doesn't have any replacements actually shipping that are really any better- A55 was like a 5-15% boost (a real stinker), A510 isn't actually shipping yet, & who knows if it'll really be better this time, another sad repeat of A55. But I don't think it changes my arguments or belief significantly. We could easily not-suck if we wanted to. Some big car company could go work with a foundry or hyperscaler & decide to kick out a lower-middle speed automotive ARM chip, which would cost very very little. I think it's also conceivable that simply using an extended temperature range chip & being a lot more careful about power regulation & noise tolerance is perfectly doable. Let's look at the parent: > You need top end device with mobile connections to drive experience similar to Carplay or Android Auto with fancy map animation, fast touch response time and music streaming apps. That device cost at least $700+. If we evaluate your critique a little more, look around, we can go further with your arguments: anything decent and Automotive-grade is not available, at any price. No one cares, no one buys it, no one makes it. Right now. Anyhow I was just throwing out numbers. You're right, we might not have 8 cores to throw around right now. Maybe only 4. A Google TV runs off a Allwinner S905D3 with slow quad A55 and low end G31MP2. It still runs a decent 4K, is pretty fast & responsive (hindered largely by flash speed). It's barely warm to the touch. The gist was: even basic cheap computers are quite fast & capable, and you're pointing out that automotive prices are high. I have to add that there are no high end cores for automotive right now, at any price, and generally just automotive is vastly under-served. But I think, ultimately, there's probably still plenty enough oomph to run a system like this, with whatever we've got.
  - AlotOfReading 4y ago
    I'm not as optimistic as you about the technical capabilities of OEMs and Tier 1s at designing good silicon and software. They're monstrously good at producing millions of thingsthat will survive the most horrendous conditions imaginable at surprisingly economical prices, but terrible at modern electronics and software. That inability keeps me employed, so slight bias here. As for simply using extended range components, Tesla actually did that for several years of the Model S infotainment system. Turned out that wasn't enough and the components started failing after a couple years [1]. [1] https://www.thedrive.com/tech/27989/teslas-screen-saga-shows-why-automotive-grade-matters https://www.thedrive.com/tech/27989/teslas-screen-saga-shows...
    - rektide 4y ago
      The screen is 100% not what I would skimp on, as they have immense mechanical wear applied to them in a car. Tesla also famously uses AMD processors in their cars; unless it's a well kept secret, AMD doesn't make any automotive parts. I would not be surprised to see ruggedized electrical defense combined with consumer application processors be fairly widespread in today's vehicles.
      - fomine3 4y ago
        For durability, some car manufacturers start adopting OLED screen. I wonder how long is it lasts.