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> The syncing of passkeys in iCloud solves this backup problem. But then apple has your keys....
by Vladimof 4y ago
> The syncing of passkeys in iCloud solves this backup problem.
But then apple has your keys....
- jtokoph 4y agoI would assume that they are at least encrypted locally before being uploaded to iCloud. (But yes, Apple could always change things)
- SamuelAdams 4y agoDon’t be so certain - we need more details from Apple on this. Last I checked iMessage was still (!) not encrypted when backed up to iCloud. https://www.howtogeek.com/710509/apples-imessage-is-secure...-unless-you-have-icloud-enabled/ https://www.howtogeek.com/710509/apples-imessage-is-secure.....
- judge2020 4y agoiCloud Keychain is end-to-end encrypted, Messages isn't because Apple took the tradeoff of allowing people to keep their imessage history even upon a support-initiated account reset, which otherwise will wipe your entire iCloud Keychain.
- reshlo 4y agoMessages is end-to-end encrypted. The key is stored in iCloud backups if they’re enabled (and if I recall correctly the messages on your device are backed up as part of an iCloud backup as well), but you can turn those backups off. > [1]For Messages in iCloud, if you have iCloud Backup turned on, your backup includes a copy of the key protecting your messages. This ensures you can recover your messages if you lose access to your Keychain and your trusted devices. When you turn off iCloud Backup, a new key is generated on your device to protect future messages and isn't stored by Apple. > If you forget your password or device passcode, iCloud Data Recovery Service can help you decrypt your data so you can regain access to your photos, notes, documents, device backups, and more. Data types that are protected by end-to-end encryption—such as your Keychain, Messages, Screen Time, and Health data—are not accessible via iCloud Data Recovery Service. Your device passcodes, which only you know, are required to decrypt and access them. Only you can access this information, and only on devices where you're signed in to iCloud. [1] https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT202303 https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT202303
- dwaite 4y agoiMessage backups are encrypted, they are just not encrypted as much as some people would like. In particular, Apple has HSM servers outside their hosting environment for auditable release of encrypted backups. This could be done for a support request for a lost user password or as part of a legal demand (say, family of the deceased seeking access to photo history, or requested by law enforcement with a court order). The passkeys system uses iCloud Keychain, which is a separate mechanism and is encrypted before being sent to Apple using user-device-private keys. You should need to both get iCloud access _and_ provision a device into the "ring" before you can access passwords or passkeys.
- 0xCMP 4y agoiCloud Backups != iCloud syncing iiuc. Passwords/Wifi/etc. syncing is a different E2EE system. You can disable iCloud Backups and still use iCloud
- Vladimof 4y agoahhh so they already have what they need to do iCloud E2EE, they just decide not to use it for your data....
- kccqzy 4y agoYup. Probably because law enforcement would be livid if Apple did that. In the San Bernardino terrorist case, Apple basically said triggering an iCloud backup is the best way to get the contents of a locked iPhone. Apple routinely supplies law enforcement with contents of iCloud backup.
- sircastor 4y agoIt remains one of the clearest examples of law enforcement wanting a friction-free solution for getting data out of iOS without Apple. They could have easily attained the information and have been doing so for years. They were explicitly trying to generate sympathy towards a backdoor solution. What's sort of surprising to me is how much they overestimated public support for their cause.
- mtgx 4y agoYes, this is known: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-apple-fbi-icloud-exclusive-idUSKBN1ZK1CT https://www.reuters.com/article/us-apple-fbi-icloud-exclusiv...
- samwillis 4y agoE2EE would have made it significantly harder for Apple to build the web based apps at iCloud.com. Not to say that shouldn’t have though, but I can understand whey they didn’t.
- 4y ago
- luhn 4y agoiCloud Keychain is end-to-end encrypted.
- gpanders 4y agoPasswords in iCloud Keychain are already E2EE, it seems reasonable the private passkeys would be too.
- djbusby 4y agoHow could one verify that? like for compliance audit?
- fnordpiglet 4y agohttps://support.apple.com/guide/sccc/introduction-sccccea61877b/web https://support.apple.com/guide/sccc/introduction-sccccea618... Introduction to Apple security assurance As part of our commitment to security, Apple regularly engages with third-party organizations to certify and attest to the security of Apple’s hardware, software, and services. These internationally recognized organizations provide Apple with certifications that align with each major operating system release. …
- znpy 4y agoAre such third parties listed? Can you inspect their reports? What testing methodologies are involved in order to issue such certifications? And can we see such certifications at all?
- TillE 4y agoIf you don't trust Apple, why would you trust a third party auditor? I can't think of any entity I would trust with securing truly sensitive information. For important stuff, do it yourself. For simple things, including bank accounts and such, I see no issue with trusting Apple.
- jupp0r 4y agoTrust requires transparency and a published security audit report created by a reputable independent author would definitely increase my trust in Apple because they show that they don't have anything to hide.
- om2 4y agoIt’s end to end encrypted. Apple doesn’t have access.
- jupp0r 4y agoSame as the don't have access to your iMessage messages ... unless you happen to use iCloud which they purposefully make really inconvenient to not use.
- drexlspivey 4y agoI would expect passkeys to be a massive liability for Apple in case they get breached. Why would they even want access to them? Do you think they want access to your accounts?
- jupp0r 4y agoI think they want to provide the "I forgot my password and lost all my devices" convenience. People hate loosing their data and loosing access to a lot of passwordless services would be a nightmare. In general I'm super weary of anybody who promises to have no access to my account and then offers any reset password functionality.
- philistine 4y agoYes Apple is willingly staying quiet about your iMessage backup being accessible by them. But it does not change the fact that iCloud Keychain is end-to-end encrypted with Apple incapable of accessing your keychain.
- BuckRogers 4y agoWhen I first learned about the iMessage backups being accessible I was a bit let letdown by Apple. But I never believed they were best in class for privacy. The iPhone's true strengths lie in the OS support and FaceID. iMessage itself is pretty slick but if I want privacy, I use Signal. It also gives me a crossplatform messenger as I prefer Windows and iOS. Same as with Microsoft Edge. It's my favorite browser now, but I do give up a bit of privacy for convenience. If I want the best privacy I use Tor Browser. Which I always keep installed with Signal.