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> Safari 16 introduces a re-architecture of WebKit’s accessibility support on macOS that delivers improved performance and increased responsiveness This is a m

> Safari 16 introduces a re-architecture of WebKit’s accessibility support on macOS that delivers improved performance and increased responsiveness This is a magnitudes more important improvement and pushing the web forward than pretending that whateverworkers are a thing that is usable beyond very few convoluted examples (even if those examples end up running in production somewhere)

vorpalhex 4y ago
Webworkers are a pretty critical foundational component of a lot of apps these days. You can probably skate by without them on simple cases but they are up there with ES6+, fetch, virtual DOM, etc.
- coldtea 4y ago
  We had that functionality back in the 80s even, with anothe type of app, called a "native app". Those apps are not why the web was created, it's just using browsers as a poor man's cross platform sandboxed app delivery mechanism...
  - vorpalhex 4y ago
    The web was created to serve users. Users benefit from rich web apps.
    - dmitriid 4y ago
      The web was created to share text documents with a few images here and there among the text. That's it. Sure, users benefit from rich apps. The web isn't a suitable platform for rich apps and will hardly ever be.
  - kazinator 4y ago
    Native apps is not why the web was created by Berners-Lee and gang, but a certain segment of the web has been chasing the desktop-like experience since, on, 1990-something. The obsession with the desktop experience, and the associated inferiority complex, are pretty much part of the web DNA.
    - rektide 4y ago
      > The obsession with the desktop experience, The "obsession" is with having a good common platform for development. Powered by some of the fastest rendering engines on the planet, some of the fastest language runtimes out there. With an unbelievably joyous continuous development brought about by fantastic live tools. For over a decade, with ongoing & continuous & highly visible improvement. It's disgraceful what sad moaning & endless disdain people who like working here have to suffer, how berated we get for seeing potential & chasing it. Getting insulted & slandered is so common, this is so typical, so regular; endless dogpiles by the haters, and it's so cheap, such an expression of negativity & bias & cruelty. I never enjoyed writing Win32 or .NET. I never enjoyed writing Qt. I never enjoyed writing FLTK nor GTK. These systems did not spark joy. The native platforms always felt crap, were so much ceremony & encumbrance, and so controlled & crufty & verbose to work with. On the web, I had a live canvas of hypertext, with rich information, ready to go, with a couple lines of HTML. And then I could sprinkle in programmability, add some JavaScript & start to move & shake things. This was an endlessly rewarding loop, was pure joy. The web is joyful. It keeps bringing better & better capabilities, more and more joy. People can go play with WebMIDI now, we can work with Gamepads, or magnenometers or accelerometers. This is fun, this is amazing. It works on all devices (some iOS exceptions may apply). > the associated inferiority complex, News-flash: the web won. It's creaming everything else. It's where jobs & development are done today, the default-go-to. It's just better. Webapps like VSCode run stupid fast & do everything better than native did, and because they're built on JS & the web they have sick sick sickeningly awesome plugins that were fast & easy to build. It's a tragedy that there's so many grumpy hurt feeling abound, around this great & good rise, that such a wonderful fantastic capable & competent system has so many cranky sad mopey feelings. If there's anyone that feels an inferiority complex, it's definitely native people. They will not simmer down & chill the frak out with their endless bemoaning & whining & belittling of the web. The web is constantly endlessly dragged on, shat on, in thread after thread after thread, by people acting high & mighty & telling us, effectively, how dare we? I didn't give you permission to be awesome! My skills are the only ones that count! What you do isn't right! So again, > the desktop experience, This is a relic, ancient dust to us. Our medium is networked by default, can be reached instantly via any device. We have rich servers providing powerful capabilities behind our thick-client user interfaces. Network architectures & information design underpin & shape our implementation decisions, are considered as we model & extend. The word API? It basically means "web interface" more than it means "native library interface" for most people now- because the web is awesome, because what we do is visible & engageable & more a part of the world & active than any lonely, isolated, compiled-down desktop app ever can be. That we happen to also have buttons & click on things doesn't make us the same. I will try to insult your platform a little less in the future. But please ya'll, you too need to show a modicum of respect. Having nothing but degrading insults for the web is small, it's out of touch, and the complaining is seemingly bottomless: here ya'll are, in a submission about the web, once again complaining that it's advancing.
  - sumy23 4y ago
    Could you execute those native apps using only a simple URL in a secure environment in under a second without any need for installation or cleanup?
  - thawaya3113 4y ago
    There was a time when Apple supporters were huge fans of web apps. When Gmail and the like meant that it was possible to have a decent experience on a Mac as well, because software developers offered web apps. (Let’s not talk about that one year when Web Apps were the best thing since sliced bread before someone convinced Jobs that native apps on iOS is actually a good idea). But now that it’s in Apple’s financial interests (not even its users’ interests) to push for native apps so Apple can collect their tax, the Apple supporters have seamlessly switched sides.
    - dmitriid 4y ago
      > the Apple supporters have seamlessly switched sides. Good try at subtle insult, but it missed the mark. Yes, the web had some promise many years ago. Now it's a monstrosity fuelled by Chrome non-standards that's one step away from collapsing under its own weight. Cases in point: https://www.quirksmode.org/blog/archives/2021/08/breaking_the_we.html https://www.quirksmode.org/blog/archives/2021/08/breaking_th... and https://toot.cafe/@nolan/106715828929897555 https://toot.cafe/@nolan/106715828929897555 and https://drewdevault.com/2020/03/18/Reckless-limitless-scope.html https://drewdevault.com/2020/03/18/Reckless-limitless-scope....
    - timeon 4y ago
      > were the best thing since sliced bread sliced bread is disaster
  - SahAssar 4y ago
    I don't see apple pushing some sort of open standard for how to write native apps that is cross platform. Google has done some efforts (like flutter), but all of those seem to tie the library/runtime to it instead of trying to make it an open standard. The web is the best standardized, cross platform, multi-runtime app platform we have.
sumy23 4y ago
When has accessibility pushed things forward? In my mind, accessibility is about parity with some existing standard, not about pushing the envelope forward.
- SahAssar 4y ago
  Accessibility has made some sites and apps expose their data in more-easily understandable ways. In general if you need to make your interfaces accessible you will also make them easier to parse.
rektide 4y ago
> [Accessibility performance improvements are] a magnitudes more important improvement and pushing the web forward than... I don't think zero-sum adversarial X vs Y thinking is helpful. Both of these have value. As a developer, it sounds like accessibility already worked, and that the benefit to the accessibilities-using features is speed, which is good, but likely not groundbreaking. But I also would like some of the many features of the web to be unlocked by this slow-to-implement browser, and SharedWorkers is over a decade old & sits in an important & unique spot. Trying to play favorites isn't in my interest, but recognizing the values of each I think is informative. > pretending that whateverworkers are a thing that is usable beyond very few convoluted examples If you don't even know what the thing is you probably aren't qualified to judge. You don't seem to be interested in learning or informing; you seem to be trying to score points, & doing so by mockery & cruelty. I hope we can find better manners, more appropriate for good, learned, engaged Hackers, than this.

vorpalhex 4y ago

Webworkers are a pretty critical foundational component of a lot of apps these days. You can probably skate by without them on simple cases but they are up there with ES6+, fetch, virtual DOM, etc.

coldtea 4y ago
We had that functionality back in the 80s even, with anothe type of app, called a "native app". Those apps are not why the web was created, it's just using browsers as a poor man's cross platform sandboxed app delivery mechanism...
- vorpalhex 4y ago
  The web was created to serve users. Users benefit from rich web apps.
  - dmitriid 4y ago
    The web was created to share text documents with a few images here and there among the text. That's it. Sure, users benefit from rich apps. The web isn't a suitable platform for rich apps and will hardly ever be.
- kazinator 4y ago
  Native apps is not why the web was created by Berners-Lee and gang, but a certain segment of the web has been chasing the desktop-like experience since, on, 1990-something. The obsession with the desktop experience, and the associated inferiority complex, are pretty much part of the web DNA.
  - rektide 4y ago
    > The obsession with the desktop experience, The "obsession" is with having a good common platform for development. Powered by some of the fastest rendering engines on the planet, some of the fastest language runtimes out there. With an unbelievably joyous continuous development brought about by fantastic live tools. For over a decade, with ongoing & continuous & highly visible improvement. It's disgraceful what sad moaning & endless disdain people who like working here have to suffer, how berated we get for seeing potential & chasing it. Getting insulted & slandered is so common, this is so typical, so regular; endless dogpiles by the haters, and it's so cheap, such an expression of negativity & bias & cruelty. I never enjoyed writing Win32 or .NET. I never enjoyed writing Qt. I never enjoyed writing FLTK nor GTK. These systems did not spark joy. The native platforms always felt crap, were so much ceremony & encumbrance, and so controlled & crufty & verbose to work with. On the web, I had a live canvas of hypertext, with rich information, ready to go, with a couple lines of HTML. And then I could sprinkle in programmability, add some JavaScript & start to move & shake things. This was an endlessly rewarding loop, was pure joy. The web is joyful. It keeps bringing better & better capabilities, more and more joy. People can go play with WebMIDI now, we can work with Gamepads, or magnenometers or accelerometers. This is fun, this is amazing. It works on all devices (some iOS exceptions may apply). > the associated inferiority complex, News-flash: the web won. It's creaming everything else. It's where jobs & development are done today, the default-go-to. It's just better. Webapps like VSCode run stupid fast & do everything better than native did, and because they're built on JS & the web they have sick sick sickeningly awesome plugins that were fast & easy to build. It's a tragedy that there's so many grumpy hurt feeling abound, around this great & good rise, that such a wonderful fantastic capable & competent system has so many cranky sad mopey feelings. If there's anyone that feels an inferiority complex, it's definitely native people. They will not simmer down & chill the frak out with their endless bemoaning & whining & belittling of the web. The web is constantly endlessly dragged on, shat on, in thread after thread after thread, by people acting high & mighty & telling us, effectively, how dare we? I didn't give you permission to be awesome! My skills are the only ones that count! What you do isn't right! So again, > the desktop experience, This is a relic, ancient dust to us. Our medium is networked by default, can be reached instantly via any device. We have rich servers providing powerful capabilities behind our thick-client user interfaces. Network architectures & information design underpin & shape our implementation decisions, are considered as we model & extend. The word API? It basically means "web interface" more than it means "native library interface" for most people now- because the web is awesome, because what we do is visible & engageable & more a part of the world & active than any lonely, isolated, compiled-down desktop app ever can be. That we happen to also have buttons & click on things doesn't make us the same. I will try to insult your platform a little less in the future. But please ya'll, you too need to show a modicum of respect. Having nothing but degrading insults for the web is small, it's out of touch, and the complaining is seemingly bottomless: here ya'll are, in a submission about the web, once again complaining that it's advancing.
- sumy23 4y ago
  Could you execute those native apps using only a simple URL in a secure environment in under a second without any need for installation or cleanup?
- thawaya3113 4y ago
  There was a time when Apple supporters were huge fans of web apps. When Gmail and the like meant that it was possible to have a decent experience on a Mac as well, because software developers offered web apps. (Let’s not talk about that one year when Web Apps were the best thing since sliced bread before someone convinced Jobs that native apps on iOS is actually a good idea). But now that it’s in Apple’s financial interests (not even its users’ interests) to push for native apps so Apple can collect their tax, the Apple supporters have seamlessly switched sides.
  - dmitriid 4y ago
    > the Apple supporters have seamlessly switched sides. Good try at subtle insult, but it missed the mark. Yes, the web had some promise many years ago. Now it's a monstrosity fuelled by Chrome non-standards that's one step away from collapsing under its own weight. Cases in point: https://www.quirksmode.org/blog/archives/2021/08/breaking_the_we.html https://www.quirksmode.org/blog/archives/2021/08/breaking_th... and https://toot.cafe/@nolan/106715828929897555 https://toot.cafe/@nolan/106715828929897555 and https://drewdevault.com/2020/03/18/Reckless-limitless-scope.html https://drewdevault.com/2020/03/18/Reckless-limitless-scope....
  - timeon 4y ago
    > were the best thing since sliced bread sliced bread is disaster
- SahAssar 4y ago
  I don't see apple pushing some sort of open standard for how to write native apps that is cross platform. Google has done some efforts (like flutter), but all of those seem to tie the library/runtime to it instead of trying to make it an open standard. The web is the best standardized, cross platform, multi-runtime app platform we have.

sumy23 4y ago

When has accessibility pushed things forward? In my mind, accessibility is about parity with some existing standard, not about pushing the envelope forward.

SahAssar 4y ago
Accessibility has made some sites and apps expose their data in more-easily understandable ways. In general if you need to make your interfaces accessible you will also make them easier to parse.

rektide 4y ago

> [Accessibility performance improvements are] a magnitudes more important improvement and pushing the web forward than... I don't think zero-sum adversarial X vs Y thinking is helpful. Both of these have value. As a developer, it sounds like accessibility already worked, and that the benefit to the accessibilities-using features is speed, which is good, but likely not groundbreaking. But I also would like some of the many features of the web to be unlocked by this slow-to-implement browser, and SharedWorkers is over a decade old & sits in an important & unique spot. Trying to play favorites isn't in my interest, but recognizing the values of each I think is informative. > pretending that whateverworkers are a thing that is usable beyond very few convoluted examples If you don't even know what the thing is you probably aren't qualified to judge. You don't seem to be interested in learning or informing; you seem to be trying to score points, & doing so by mockery & cruelty. I hope we can find better manners, more appropriate for good, learned, engaged Hackers, than this.