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I disagree, I think it's a great feature that let's apps like ProtonMail not require a desktop app. What it needs is a user-driven gesture restriction and a ha

I disagree, I think it's a great feature that let's apps like ProtonMail not require a desktop app. What it needs is a user-driven gesture restriction and a harsh penalty by Google for firing on first-load.

ocdtrekkie 4y ago
If a web standard only works if Google "penalizes" people, it's a bad web standard. I hate having to express this weekly, but Google is not the web. I really don't think any mail client needs corner of screen popups to be useful: I respond to most emails within 5-10 minutes, have used web email since 2005, and I've never wanted or allowed push notifications on my desktop. It is, at best, a solution looking for a problem, and at worst, an adtech popup spec maliciously impressed upon the web with a casual justification for building it.
- endisneigh 4y ago
  Why not disable notifications if you don’t like them? This functionality is opt in. If you don’t toggle this feature flag you’d never even know. Lol
  - dijit 4y ago
    > Why not disable notifications if you don’t like them? Lol The “Lol” at the end of your comment is misplaced, comes off as condescending. Not everyone is the same as you, maybe they had considered turning them off and it’s possible that they believe that it may not be an option. For people outside of tech who do not mess with the settings of their devices, ironically the same people who are likely to be abused by this feature, then having a toggle is not very useful overall anyway. But, I’m not happy with your tone as it brings down the whole conversation to the same tired old flame war/shit slinging that inevitably happens when someone starts it with mild condescension on the internet.
    - endisneigh 4y ago
      Given that the feature in question is explicitly opt in, there’s no problem then.
  - ocdtrekkie 4y ago
    Notifications is enabled by default on every major browser that supports them. I turn them off, and at work, push a policy to disable them across the org, but it's still something I see and hear a lot afflicting non-technical users, especially seniors.
rektide 4y ago
I agree that it's a great feature. It's just actively terrible for 99.9999% of websites. There is a user-gesture restriction. So now there's an HTML pop-up on dozens of pages. Imo the user-gesture + permission-modal design is fundamentally bad. We penalize sites by making them have to maim their cover with grotesque user-gesture cutouts, then, once the user clicks (makes a user gesture) they have to click again. Sites should just request push notifications, without user gestures. Something should show up in the awesome-bar, and users can enable it at their leasure. Rather than an active "pull" flow for permissions, we need a "push" flow where users can passively enable/disable some permissions freely, in a more chill way. Conversion rates would plummet, but the whole web would be a much more pleasant place & actually operate for-the-user, which is what the internet is for[1]. [1] https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc8890 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc8890
teakettle42 4y ago
> I think it's a great feature that let's apps like ProtonMail not require a desktop app. For many users, being forced into web-only non-native cloud “apps” is not actually feature. Especially for something like end-to-end ostensibly client-side encrypted e-mail.
- endisneigh 4y ago
  Why would you be forced exactly? Developers can still make native apps.
  - teakettle42 4y ago
    Forced by developers that refuse to make the necessary investment in producing native applications, because — with features like web push notifications — the poor web UX is something these developers consider “good enough”. This thread is about actively facilitating that kind of behavior by developers.
    - endisneigh 4y ago
      That’s not what forced means. Consider that there are developers who have apps with no notifications at all. For some, something is better than nothing. Personally I like web notifications, if the site doesn’t implement them well then turn it off for that site.
      - teakettle42 4y ago
        “Forced” means to be compelled by force or necessity. I’m forced to use crappy web apps for work. How does it benefit Apple — or Apple’s users — for Apple to facilitate forcing users into crappy, non-native web apps?
        endisneigh 4y ago
        Again, no one is being forced. This isn’t even opt out, it’s opt-in. So, yeah, no one is forcing anyone. It’s simply an option.

ocdtrekkie 4y ago

If a web standard only works if Google "penalizes" people, it's a bad web standard. I hate having to express this weekly, but Google is not the web. I really don't think any mail client needs corner of screen popups to be useful: I respond to most emails within 5-10 minutes, have used web email since 2005, and I've never wanted or allowed push notifications on my desktop. It is, at best, a solution looking for a problem, and at worst, an adtech popup spec maliciously impressed upon the web with a casual justification for building it.

endisneigh 4y ago
Why not disable notifications if you don’t like them? This functionality is opt in. If you don’t toggle this feature flag you’d never even know. Lol
- dijit 4y ago
  > Why not disable notifications if you don’t like them? Lol The “Lol” at the end of your comment is misplaced, comes off as condescending. Not everyone is the same as you, maybe they had considered turning them off and it’s possible that they believe that it may not be an option. For people outside of tech who do not mess with the settings of their devices, ironically the same people who are likely to be abused by this feature, then having a toggle is not very useful overall anyway. But, I’m not happy with your tone as it brings down the whole conversation to the same tired old flame war/shit slinging that inevitably happens when someone starts it with mild condescension on the internet.
  - endisneigh 4y ago
    Given that the feature in question is explicitly opt in, there’s no problem then.
- ocdtrekkie 4y ago
  Notifications is enabled by default on every major browser that supports them. I turn them off, and at work, push a policy to disable them across the org, but it's still something I see and hear a lot afflicting non-technical users, especially seniors.

rektide 4y ago

I agree that it's a great feature. It's just actively terrible for 99.9999% of websites. There is a user-gesture restriction. So now there's an HTML pop-up on dozens of pages. Imo the user-gesture + permission-modal design is fundamentally bad. We penalize sites by making them have to maim their cover with grotesque user-gesture cutouts, then, once the user clicks (makes a user gesture) they have to click again. Sites should just request push notifications, without user gestures. Something should show up in the awesome-bar, and users can enable it at their leasure. Rather than an active "pull" flow for permissions, we need a "push" flow where users can passively enable/disable some permissions freely, in a more chill way. Conversion rates would plummet, but the whole web would be a much more pleasant place & actually operate for-the-user, which is what the internet is for[1]. [1] https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc8890 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc8890

teakettle42 4y ago

> I think it's a great feature that let's apps like ProtonMail not require a desktop app. For many users, being forced into web-only non-native cloud “apps” is not actually feature. Especially for something like end-to-end ostensibly client-side encrypted e-mail.

endisneigh 4y ago
Why would you be forced exactly? Developers can still make native apps.
- teakettle42 4y ago
  Forced by developers that refuse to make the necessary investment in producing native applications, because — with features like web push notifications — the poor web UX is something these developers consider “good enough”. This thread is about actively facilitating that kind of behavior by developers.
  - endisneigh 4y ago
    That’s not what forced means. Consider that there are developers who have apps with no notifications at all. For some, something is better than nothing. Personally I like web notifications, if the site doesn’t implement them well then turn it off for that site.
    - teakettle42 4y ago
      “Forced” means to be compelled by force or necessity. I’m forced to use crappy web apps for work. How does it benefit Apple — or Apple’s users — for Apple to facilitate forcing users into crappy, non-native web apps?
      - endisneigh 4y ago
        Again, no one is being forced. This isn’t even opt out, it’s opt-in. So, yeah, no one is forcing anyone. It’s simply an option.