5 ms·

What has been proven is that consumers don't care about customization too much. If they want it, they don't want it that much.

bogwog 4y ago
How has that been "proven"? If your argument is that people are still buying Macs despite the lack of customization, well that's ignoring the state of the market. Most consumers only have two choices (Mac or Windows), and oftentimes it comes down to familiarity with one OS over the other, rather than any specific features or merits of the actual product. If Apple released a "customizable" Mac, or one that could be upgraded like a standard PC, do you believe that would sell poorly? I highly doubt it.
- robertlagrant 4y ago
  It's not univariate, but if the software outweighs hardware modularity then that's useful information.
- kube-system 4y ago
  Modular laptops currently exist, and have existed in multiple incarnations over their entire existence. They always flop in the mass market. People in the tech community want modularity and upgradability. But you must remember that tech forums are tiny bubbles. The mass market overwhelmingly DGAF. If you want to be successful at selling laptops to a tiny market, it is possible. You will have a company that looks like Framework or System76.
  - bogwog 4y ago
    This thread isn't very useful since my original comment wasn't clear enough, and it seems like people are misinterpreting my point, and then making assumptions about those interpretations. * I'm not saying Apple should make a "modular laptop", just disagreeing with the idea that users wouldn't buy one. * I'm also not talking about Framework-style modularity, but "simple" things like swapping out the hard drive and RAM, two things you can't do on Macs or Macbooks anymore. Even if the average consumer wouldn't ever think to swap out those components themselves, the modularity would directly lead to longer lifespans for devices, lower repair costs, and (significantly) less e-waste. There are many regular non-tech people who would want those benefits.
    - kube-system 4y ago
      I'm following. Modular designs are not without tradeoff. Using memory on a board requires different types of memory (i.e. not LPDDRX), which have different performance and power characteristics. It requires changes to packaging and the overall design to facilitate that modularity. It changes their ability to share subcomponent designs with other products in their offerings. It introduces opportunities for commercial third-party modifications, which can be of varying quality. It requires a larger BOM. And it changes the mechanics of product tiering. All of these attributes influence factors for which the mass market does consider when buying laptops.
      - bogwog 4y ago
        All true, but what I'm saying is that nothing has been "proven". The market has not decided that this is what it wants, Apple has. They have a pure monopoly on the market for Mac-compatible hardware, so whatever they do is immune to the regular market forces which would normally require them to make different product decisions. So again, whatever Apple manages to sell does not really reflect the reality of the market, since they 100% control that particular market. To say that consumers don't want something because Apple says so, is just wrong. Maybe Apple is right (and this isn't just a decision that's beneficial to their already-obscene margins), but there's no way to know. Hence, it is not "proven" in any meaningful way.
        kube-system 4y ago
        Apple's laptops compete in the same market for laptops that others do. I definitely doubt that Apple's customers prioritize modularity more than Linux or Windows users. Very likely the opposite. Yet, the most popular devices of any OS are moving towards non-modular designs.
- simonh 4y ago
  There has been tons of research in this. Of consumer machines capable of being upgraded, only a low single digit percentage of them ever are. Factor in issues with driver support and updates for arbitrary hardware, the weight premium for upgradability, compromises in chassis rigidity and resilience to add removable panels and it’s just hugely wasteful and compromises quality for the vast majority of owners.
  - bogwog 4y ago
    Can you cite any of this research? I'm not doubting your claims, I'm legitimately curious.
  - seabriez 4y ago
    Haha, I dont know about these studies but I was just browsing and randomly saw this. Checking in that I definitely upgrade my machines all the time.
- deltaonefour 4y ago
  It's proven through consumer choice of laptops over desktops. Proof is in the sales figures. Consumers choose a less customizable product over one that is customizable indicating logically that some features are more important then customizability. Which continues to be in line with what I said. Consumers don't care about it as much. It is proof. Please refute this claim or acknowledge you are wrong. Thanks.
  - bogwog 4y ago
    Now I know you're just trolling me
    - deltaonefour 4y ago
      Sort of. But I mean I said it because it's definitively true. The troll part is because it's also definitively obvious, and I know everyone knows about this, including you. And I can easily form a statement that can't be challenged at all. You're still welcome to prove my statements wrong even though it's impossible. Obviously you're just not thinking in that direction and you're sort of heavily biased towards modularity and other niche nerd features.

bogwog 4y ago

How has that been "proven"? If your argument is that people are still buying Macs despite the lack of customization, well that's ignoring the state of the market. Most consumers only have two choices (Mac or Windows), and oftentimes it comes down to familiarity with one OS over the other, rather than any specific features or merits of the actual product. If Apple released a "customizable" Mac, or one that could be upgraded like a standard PC, do you believe that would sell poorly? I highly doubt it.

robertlagrant 4y ago
It's not univariate, but if the software outweighs hardware modularity then that's useful information.
kube-system 4y ago
Modular laptops currently exist, and have existed in multiple incarnations over their entire existence. They always flop in the mass market. People in the tech community want modularity and upgradability. But you must remember that tech forums are tiny bubbles. The mass market overwhelmingly DGAF. If you want to be successful at selling laptops to a tiny market, it is possible. You will have a company that looks like Framework or System76.
- bogwog 4y ago
  This thread isn't very useful since my original comment wasn't clear enough, and it seems like people are misinterpreting my point, and then making assumptions about those interpretations. * I'm not saying Apple should make a "modular laptop", just disagreeing with the idea that users wouldn't buy one. * I'm also not talking about Framework-style modularity, but "simple" things like swapping out the hard drive and RAM, two things you can't do on Macs or Macbooks anymore. Even if the average consumer wouldn't ever think to swap out those components themselves, the modularity would directly lead to longer lifespans for devices, lower repair costs, and (significantly) less e-waste. There are many regular non-tech people who would want those benefits.
  - kube-system 4y ago
    I'm following. Modular designs are not without tradeoff. Using memory on a board requires different types of memory (i.e. not LPDDRX), which have different performance and power characteristics. It requires changes to packaging and the overall design to facilitate that modularity. It changes their ability to share subcomponent designs with other products in their offerings. It introduces opportunities for commercial third-party modifications, which can be of varying quality. It requires a larger BOM. And it changes the mechanics of product tiering. All of these attributes influence factors for which the mass market does consider when buying laptops.
    - bogwog 4y ago
      All true, but what I'm saying is that nothing has been "proven". The market has not decided that this is what it wants, Apple has. They have a pure monopoly on the market for Mac-compatible hardware, so whatever they do is immune to the regular market forces which would normally require them to make different product decisions. So again, whatever Apple manages to sell does not really reflect the reality of the market, since they 100% control that particular market. To say that consumers don't want something because Apple says so, is just wrong. Maybe Apple is right (and this isn't just a decision that's beneficial to their already-obscene margins), but there's no way to know. Hence, it is not "proven" in any meaningful way.
      - kube-system 4y ago
        Apple's laptops compete in the same market for laptops that others do. I definitely doubt that Apple's customers prioritize modularity more than Linux or Windows users. Very likely the opposite. Yet, the most popular devices of any OS are moving towards non-modular designs.
simonh 4y ago
There has been tons of research in this. Of consumer machines capable of being upgraded, only a low single digit percentage of them ever are. Factor in issues with driver support and updates for arbitrary hardware, the weight premium for upgradability, compromises in chassis rigidity and resilience to add removable panels and it’s just hugely wasteful and compromises quality for the vast majority of owners.
- bogwog 4y ago
  Can you cite any of this research? I'm not doubting your claims, I'm legitimately curious.
- seabriez 4y ago
  Haha, I dont know about these studies but I was just browsing and randomly saw this. Checking in that I definitely upgrade my machines all the time.
deltaonefour 4y ago
It's proven through consumer choice of laptops over desktops. Proof is in the sales figures. Consumers choose a less customizable product over one that is customizable indicating logically that some features are more important then customizability. Which continues to be in line with what I said. Consumers don't care about it as much. It is proof. Please refute this claim or acknowledge you are wrong. Thanks.
- bogwog 4y ago
  Now I know you're just trolling me
  - deltaonefour 4y ago
    Sort of. But I mean I said it because it's definitively true. The troll part is because it's also definitively obvious, and I know everyone knows about this, including you. And I can easily form a statement that can't be challenged at all. You're still welcome to prove my statements wrong even though it's impossible. Obviously you're just not thinking in that direction and you're sort of heavily biased towards modularity and other niche nerd features.