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Another day, another HN thread about misogyny and sexism in STEM Actually, we're not talking about STEM in general, we're talking about computer programming in

by hugh3 15y ago

Another day, another HN thread about misogyny and sexism in STEM Actually, we're not talking about STEM in general, we're talking about computer programming in particular. As I was reading this thread, I was just thinking about how other parts of the STEM community aren't nearly so bad. For instance, if you go hang out in your local university's maths (or physics) department, you'll find many of the same conditions. You'll find an overwhelmingly male group, ranging from slightly nerdy to very nerdy, with a sprinkling of a few women. But you won't find these sorts of problems occurring nearly so often. Why? I think it's part of a culture of professionalism vs unprofessionalism, and it's largely age-driven. A university department is dominated (socially if not numerically) by people in their forties and fifties, giving the workplace a much older, quieter, more professional feel than you get in a tech company where just about everybody is in their twenties. It's just a matter of having plenty of adult supervision around, I think. Linux user groups are even worse. They combine the worst features of a party (a lack of professionalism) with the worst features of a high tech workplace (a twenty-to-one sex ratio) so it's not surprising that bad things can happen there.

DanBC 15y ago
>For instance, if you go hang out in your local university's maths (or physics) department There's the trans-gendered (male to female) mathematician who'd disagree. She says that when she used to give talks (as a male) she got respect, but now people say things like "Her brother was better" not realising it's the same person.
- hugh3 15y ago
  Maybe they just disrespect him because... let's face it, surgically mutilating your penis, taking a bunch of hormones and demanding that everybody call you "she" is just plain weird, regardless of what current orthodoxy says.
  - jbooth 15y ago
    ".. not realizing it's the same person." He's talking about the difference between the response to a male and female, in other words highlighting sexism rather than transgenderphobia or whatever you call it. Thanks for putting yours on display though.
    - nieve 15y ago
      The word you want is transphobia (for the generic fear, hatred or contempt) or cissexism for the more general "it's your choice but it's weird and unnatural and I don't believe you actually are that way" sort of bigotry. The cis/trans construction people are using in the pair cisgender/transgender is my favorite Latinate neologism of the last few years. Joan Roughgarden (biologist, founder of the Earth Systems Program at Stanford) and Ben Barres (a neurobiologist also at Stanford) transitioned in opposite directions and reported the same phenomenon in mirror: Roughgarden saw people assuming her work was suddenly less important, Barres saw people in his field not realizing he was the same person and commenting that his research was so much better than his sister's. He authored a commentary in Nature 442 (p133-136 (13 July 2006), DOI:10.1038/442133a) that's worth reading. They're certainly not the only ones!
  - DanBC 15y ago
    Except they do not know that she has had any surgery. As far as they know she's just a she, and that is the only reason she gets less respect. (I'm trying to find the article, which is hard because there's many transgendered mathematicians.)
  - airlocksoftware 15y ago
    Your comment really bothers me. I really just want to respond with "fuck you", but maybe there's still something there to save. How exactly is trying to make your body conform to what your mind is telling you so weird? Try to use a little empathy, and imagine (if you're a man) waking up in a woman's body tomorrow, and having everyone treat you as if it's always been that way. Might you not want to try to have your body express what you feel you are internally?
  - chalst 15y ago
    If you like, if you can't deal with some things that you find weird, that's your problem and you who are unprofessional. People who can't be professional in their work life do not deserve respect.
gatlin 15y ago
Completely fair. I saw some generalizations below which were leaning towards the broader "women can't math" sentiment, but you're right: I was myself too hasty. I think my point stands though and I agree with everything you said.

by hugh3 15y ago

DanBC 15y ago

>For instance, if you go hang out in your local university's maths (or physics) department There's the trans-gendered (male to female) mathematician who'd disagree. She says that when she used to give talks (as a male) she got respect, but now people say things like "Her brother was better" not realising it's the same person.

hugh3 15y ago
Maybe they just disrespect him because... let's face it, surgically mutilating your penis, taking a bunch of hormones and demanding that everybody call you "she" is just plain weird, regardless of what current orthodoxy says.
- jbooth 15y ago
  ".. not realizing it's the same person." He's talking about the difference between the response to a male and female, in other words highlighting sexism rather than transgenderphobia or whatever you call it. Thanks for putting yours on display though.
  - nieve 15y ago
    The word you want is transphobia (for the generic fear, hatred or contempt) or cissexism for the more general "it's your choice but it's weird and unnatural and I don't believe you actually are that way" sort of bigotry. The cis/trans construction people are using in the pair cisgender/transgender is my favorite Latinate neologism of the last few years. Joan Roughgarden (biologist, founder of the Earth Systems Program at Stanford) and Ben Barres (a neurobiologist also at Stanford) transitioned in opposite directions and reported the same phenomenon in mirror: Roughgarden saw people assuming her work was suddenly less important, Barres saw people in his field not realizing he was the same person and commenting that his research was so much better than his sister's. He authored a commentary in Nature 442 (p133-136 (13 July 2006), DOI:10.1038/442133a) that's worth reading. They're certainly not the only ones!
- DanBC 15y ago
  Except they do not know that she has had any surgery. As far as they know she's just a she, and that is the only reason she gets less respect. (I'm trying to find the article, which is hard because there's many transgendered mathematicians.)
- airlocksoftware 15y ago
  Your comment really bothers me. I really just want to respond with "fuck you", but maybe there's still something there to save. How exactly is trying to make your body conform to what your mind is telling you so weird? Try to use a little empathy, and imagine (if you're a man) waking up in a woman's body tomorrow, and having everyone treat you as if it's always been that way. Might you not want to try to have your body express what you feel you are internally?
- chalst 15y ago
  If you like, if you can't deal with some things that you find weird, that's your problem and you who are unprofessional. People who can't be professional in their work life do not deserve respect.

gatlin 15y ago

Completely fair. I saw some generalizations below which were leaning towards the broader "women can't math" sentiment, but you're right: I was myself too hasty. I think my point stands though and I agree with everything you said.