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Join the Fediverse. Most people there have no interest in mainstream culture and none of the software is built in a way to gamify engagement. I keep thinking o

Join the Fediverse. Most people there have no interest in mainstream culture and none of the software is built in a way to gamify engagement. I keep thinking of putting together a bridge between twitter and my mastodon server, but I am always postponing it because it feels wrong.

giraffe_lady 4y ago
But that's an artifact of the groups of people that self-select onto that platform, not a property of the platform or its incentives itself. If it became as popular as other platforms it would attract people with similar goals as are on other platforms. The technology isn't intentionally designed to reward them, but they will still find rewards and pursue them if it is their best option.
- rglullis 4y ago
  Not necessarily. Mastodon, Pleroma and Pixelfed intentionally lack features that would be geared for influencers. Mastodon has no "quote tweet" to avoid having people taking conversations out of context. Pixelfed even has admin-controlled options to disable "likes" and display of counts altogether. The clients, having no "algorithm" beyond basic chronological sort, make it hard for influencers to game the system. And it wouldn't be too difficult to have an instance where users have limited follower counts to keep the conversation more personal.
  - ChadNauseam 4y ago
    Chronological order makes it incredibly easy for "influencers" to game the system. Just post a lot. The system that's hardest to game is the one with the most reliance on algorithms, TikTok. On TikTok, you don't go viral because of some mechanical effect where >1/n people retweet you to their n-sized audience or anything like that, you go viral because the algorithm showed your video to random people and enough of them liked it that the algorithm realized your video is the one that some particular subgroup is most likely to enjoy. (Sorry for the run-on sentence.) On TikTok you don't have to post every day to "grow an audience", you have to post literally one good video, and if it's really good, it'll get 200k likes by the next morning even if it's the first thing you've ever posted. I think that also leads to a reduction in "hustle culture" – if you post something on YouTube most likely no one will ever see it no matter how great it is. But if you post something on TikTok and it's good, people will see it, and so that obviously creates a much stronger motivation to produce rather than to consume.
    - rglullis 4y ago
      > if you post something on TikTok and it's good, people will see it, and so that obviously creates a much stronger motivation to produce rather than to consume. You took one part of my comment and missed all the other, more important parts where we were discussing about a platform people can have "closer" conversations. My whole argument about the Fediverse is that (most) people are not looking for extrinsic motivation to produce. I've seen very little people worrying about "going viral" and like I said the systems are mostly designed to discourage these things. Having someone "posting a lot" will quickly be seen as a nuisance and people will stop following them, or get outright blocked.
- colinsane 4y ago
  > But that's an artifact of the groups of people that self-select onto that platform, not a property of the platform or its incentives itself. the Fediverse is _incredibly_ heterogeneous. pick any two distant corners of it and often they'll be completely unaware that the other corner even exists. the platform allows for different cultures like this and the tooling is such that i _think_ this will remain true as it grows (admins can and do "defederate" with communities whose presence makes the experience worse for them, and as sibling points out there's far less algorithmic-driven content). so i'm receptive to the idea that a long-term fix for influencer culture -- for those who want to avoid it -- really can be found there, simply because it allows for so much self-sorting. influencer culture might very well still exist, but just like every other culture on the platform it'll be concentrated only to specific corners of the Fediverse.

giraffe_lady 4y ago

But that's an artifact of the groups of people that self-select onto that platform, not a property of the platform or its incentives itself. If it became as popular as other platforms it would attract people with similar goals as are on other platforms. The technology isn't intentionally designed to reward them, but they will still find rewards and pursue them if it is their best option.

rglullis 4y ago
Not necessarily. Mastodon, Pleroma and Pixelfed intentionally lack features that would be geared for influencers. Mastodon has no "quote tweet" to avoid having people taking conversations out of context. Pixelfed even has admin-controlled options to disable "likes" and display of counts altogether. The clients, having no "algorithm" beyond basic chronological sort, make it hard for influencers to game the system. And it wouldn't be too difficult to have an instance where users have limited follower counts to keep the conversation more personal.
- ChadNauseam 4y ago
  Chronological order makes it incredibly easy for "influencers" to game the system. Just post a lot. The system that's hardest to game is the one with the most reliance on algorithms, TikTok. On TikTok, you don't go viral because of some mechanical effect where >1/n people retweet you to their n-sized audience or anything like that, you go viral because the algorithm showed your video to random people and enough of them liked it that the algorithm realized your video is the one that some particular subgroup is most likely to enjoy. (Sorry for the run-on sentence.) On TikTok you don't have to post every day to "grow an audience", you have to post literally one good video, and if it's really good, it'll get 200k likes by the next morning even if it's the first thing you've ever posted. I think that also leads to a reduction in "hustle culture" – if you post something on YouTube most likely no one will ever see it no matter how great it is. But if you post something on TikTok and it's good, people will see it, and so that obviously creates a much stronger motivation to produce rather than to consume.
  - rglullis 4y ago
    > if you post something on TikTok and it's good, people will see it, and so that obviously creates a much stronger motivation to produce rather than to consume. You took one part of my comment and missed all the other, more important parts where we were discussing about a platform people can have "closer" conversations. My whole argument about the Fediverse is that (most) people are not looking for extrinsic motivation to produce. I've seen very little people worrying about "going viral" and like I said the systems are mostly designed to discourage these things. Having someone "posting a lot" will quickly be seen as a nuisance and people will stop following them, or get outright blocked.
colinsane 4y ago
> But that's an artifact of the groups of people that self-select onto that platform, not a property of the platform or its incentives itself. the Fediverse is _incredibly_ heterogeneous. pick any two distant corners of it and often they'll be completely unaware that the other corner even exists. the platform allows for different cultures like this and the tooling is such that i _think_ this will remain true as it grows (admins can and do "defederate" with communities whose presence makes the experience worse for them, and as sibling points out there's far less algorithmic-driven content). so i'm receptive to the idea that a long-term fix for influencer culture -- for those who want to avoid it -- really can be found there, simply because it allows for so much self-sorting. influencer culture might very well still exist, but just like every other culture on the platform it'll be concentrated only to specific corners of the Fediverse.