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Also: >The Parkland shooter had just been expelled from school and then came back. This is not a problem we can punish our way out of. I believe a lot of the p

Also: >The Parkland shooter had just been expelled from school and then came back. This is not a problem we can punish our way out of. I believe a lot of the problem is collective nihilism among low status "disposable" men. Lack of career prospects, lack of marriage prospects and lack of social attachment render people resentful outlaws. The option other than ending it all is to stay indoors consuming and do the bare minimum, passing a meaningless existence. I don't think we have many narratives to get them out of the hole they're in.

RGamma 4y ago
> I don't think we have many narratives to get them out of the hole they're in. I believe the US chose this path (by accident) by yielding control to open sociopaths (particularly thinking about Trump and how he came to be president), contrary to what would be required to maintain a high functioning civilsation. Somewhere down the line in US cultural evolution the axiomatic acceptance of common good, civic values and middle class society were cast to the sideline and replaced with dog-eat-dog competition and status chasing/signalling. I realize it's a large, diverse country and YMMV, but there's definitely a bad aftertaste. I believe by and large individual psychology tends towards self-preservation and a lot of people must subconsciously feel the gun to their head. No wonder so many are going crazy under the pressure; the online noise notwithstanding (it's a common impression in Germany). And those, who can't or don't want to adapt, decompensate: In Japan they become hikikomori, in the US they shoot up schools (generally speaking): It's a final "fuck you" to society.
- s1artibartfast 4y ago
  I agree. I think another way to sum it up is simply a combination of nihilism and pessimism that has been growing in America for decades.
robonerd 4y ago
> Lack of career prospects, lack of marriage prospects and lack of social attachment At least in many cases, these problems are caused by the men themselves (or by their mental conditions, if you prefer). That "low status "disposable"" thing you mention isn't some arbitrary fluke of what society values; these people generally aren't victims of social standards. They tend to be ostracized by their peers who notice patterns of psychosis and violence years before any shooting occurs. The shooters aren't victims; the victims are the peers of these dangerous males who's concerns aren't taken seriously by adult authorities before it's too late. Since adults don't take the problem seriously until people start dying, all the other kids are left to deal with the problem themselves using the limited tools they have available; shunning, bullying, etc. Then when that fails, adults suddenly notice the problem and blame the kids who were ostracizing the shooter without bothering to ask why they were ostracizing the shooter. They misidentify a failed mitigation as the root cause.
- havblue 4y ago
  The professors were stating that this isn't a problem that we can punish our way out of. But in your response you only address measures to ensure that social outcasts are identified and dealt with before they hurt someone. It seems like you disagree with the premise of the interview.
  - robonerd 4y ago
    I didn't suggest punishing so I don't know what you're responding to. What we need to do is listen to bullies (aka, the normal kids) and take their concerns seriously. Without fail, they're the first to notice these problems. With early detection, the psychos can be isolated and treated. Kids already know who the psychos are.

RGamma 4y ago

> I don't think we have many narratives to get them out of the hole they're in. I believe the US chose this path (by accident) by yielding control to open sociopaths (particularly thinking about Trump and how he came to be president), contrary to what would be required to maintain a high functioning civilsation. Somewhere down the line in US cultural evolution the axiomatic acceptance of common good, civic values and middle class society were cast to the sideline and replaced with dog-eat-dog competition and status chasing/signalling. I realize it's a large, diverse country and YMMV, but there's definitely a bad aftertaste. I believe by and large individual psychology tends towards self-preservation and a lot of people must subconsciously feel the gun to their head. No wonder so many are going crazy under the pressure; the online noise notwithstanding (it's a common impression in Germany). And those, who can't or don't want to adapt, decompensate: In Japan they become hikikomori, in the US they shoot up schools (generally speaking): It's a final "fuck you" to society.

s1artibartfast 4y ago
I agree. I think another way to sum it up is simply a combination of nihilism and pessimism that has been growing in America for decades.

robonerd 4y ago

> Lack of career prospects, lack of marriage prospects and lack of social attachment At least in many cases, these problems are caused by the men themselves (or by their mental conditions, if you prefer). That "low status "disposable"" thing you mention isn't some arbitrary fluke of what society values; these people generally aren't victims of social standards. They tend to be ostracized by their peers who notice patterns of psychosis and violence years before any shooting occurs. The shooters aren't victims; the victims are the peers of these dangerous males who's concerns aren't taken seriously by adult authorities before it's too late. Since adults don't take the problem seriously until people start dying, all the other kids are left to deal with the problem themselves using the limited tools they have available; shunning, bullying, etc. Then when that fails, adults suddenly notice the problem and blame the kids who were ostracizing the shooter without bothering to ask why they were ostracizing the shooter. They misidentify a failed mitigation as the root cause.

havblue 4y ago
The professors were stating that this isn't a problem that we can punish our way out of. But in your response you only address measures to ensure that social outcasts are identified and dealt with before they hurt someone. It seems like you disagree with the premise of the interview.
- robonerd 4y ago
  I didn't suggest punishing so I don't know what you're responding to. What we need to do is listen to bullies (aka, the normal kids) and take their concerns seriously. Without fail, they're the first to notice these problems. With early detection, the psychos can be isolated and treated. Kids already know who the psychos are.