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>Snowden Looking back at everything that transpired with Snowden boggles the mind. I still have no idea if he's an adversarial plant by some government (meant

>Snowden Looking back at everything that transpired with Snowden boggles the mind. I still have no idea if he's an adversarial plant by some government (meant to sow distrust, etc) or if he was genuine from the get-go. It is incredibly hard to get to the truths of these things, and the media outlets spinning it in their own ways (based on who donates to them and who owns them) makes it even harder.

aaaaaaaaata 4y ago
Used to entertain ideas that he was an intelligence limited hangout, but...he's just too relentless & genuine to be doing a "good job" as one! He really does try to inform the People.
ProAm 4y ago
I wonder if the Ukraine war has affected Snowden with all the sanctions? An America, exiled in Russia who has a job and works. Is he paid in Rubles? Is life immensely more difficult for him now than it was 6 months ago? Curious.
- nosianu 4y ago
  I read an article just today - sorry, forgot which one, and too many in my history to find - reporting about foreigners still in Russia, who refuse to leave. They say there is a lot less variety in stores, but life is really quite normal. Except, everybody really makes sure what to say (and what not), especially to strangers. They report difficulties - or impossibilities - with money transfers. I have a friend with decades of business ties to Russia, he and his (Russian) wife live in Germany but he has a residency-type visa (whatever it's called) for Russia and even after the war flew there several times, via Turkey. There still are quite a few businesses present, smaller ones I think. I fully support Ukraine, but personally I'm content with those kinds of contacts remaining. They - several interviewed people independently - reported that they did not experience any problems from normal Russian people or from the authorities but where treated normally. I think if Snowden just removes himself from public view and does not talk about politics and the... special operation, he'll be just fine, as will all the other foreigners. EDIT: Found it: "Westerners Who Stayed in Russia Find Home Transformed By War" (published yesterday) https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2022/06/05/westerners-who-stayed-in-russia-find-home-transformed-by-war-a77864 https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2022/06/05/westerners-who-sta... Note that "Moscow Times" is not aligned with the Russian government, and is registered in Russia as "foreign agent"- Please don't let the name deceive you. As you can see from their articles, they freely report on the war and the impact of the sanctions and other stuff. There Russian language website has even more detailed articles about Russian internal things, quite unfiltered (Google Chrome can auto-translate, if necessary). > None of the Westerners in Russia interviewed by The Moscow Times said they had feared for their physical safety since the start of the war. Nor did they report any instances of hostility from authorities or ordinary Russians. > But the military campaign has undoubtedly cast a cloud over their relationships with others, making them more cautious when voicing opinions.
- yardie 4y ago
  From what I understand, and I'm not sure if it's propaganda or not, but the ruble dropped and then bounced back. The only Russians affected by the embargoes are the expats. They have to exchange rubles for dollars but can't. Even NATO members are still buying Russian oil and gas. Cutting it off completely would destabilize their own economies.
  - at-fates-hands 4y ago
    >> but the ruble dropped and then bounced back. You are correct. Understandably, the Russian authorities blamed the West for the drop in the ruble exchange rate, and depreciation for inflation. At the same time, they reacted by enforcing capital controls, restricting convertibility, offering more rubles to support bank liquidity and raising interest rates on ruble deposits. Shortly afterward, they also announced that in the future Moscow would honor its euro- and dollar- denominated debts, but would ask “hostile countries” to pay for their energy imports in rubles. Some dubbed this policy the “ruble clause.” The authorities can now boast that the ruble has stabilized. By the beginning of April, one euro bought 85 rubles, marking a slightly stronger exchange rate than before the war began. Western operators are perhaps not overly interested in Russian monetary policy. But what about the ruble clause? Is it little more than a flash in the pan with little practical relevance, or should we take it more seriously? https://www.gisreportsonline.com/r/ruble-clause/ https://www.gisreportsonline.com/r/ruble-clause/
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - iLemming 4y ago
    > but the ruble dropped and then bounced back. It doesn't mean much. If I remember it right, back in USSR time, the ruble rate was about 1.6 for a dollar. Yet people couldn't buy toilet paper whenever they needed it. There was a severe deficit of pretty much everything. It's not going to be like in the 90s - the economy is very different, but sugar shortages just three-four weeks into the war is not a good sign. It will get tough for Russians, which is not beneficial to anyone - not for them, nor for Europeans, Americans, or Chinese.
the_af 4y ago
> I still have no idea if he's an adversarial plant by some government Was what he disclosed true or not? In the end, that's all that matters.
- SV_BubbleTime 4y ago
  I have found all the “shoot the messenger” of leaks to be so backwards it seems like an orchestrated defense.
  - dfxm12 4y ago
    It is, and it's how media manufactures consent for punishing/outing whistleblowers who should be protected from any type of harassment. We saw something similar recently with the leak of the SCOTUS Roe v Wade opinion. There was a huge push to move the discussion from how controversial the opinion was & what the fallout would be towards "leaks are bad & we have to find who did this".
    - SV_BubbleTime 4y ago
      >It is, and it's how media manufactures consent for punishing/outing whistleblowers who should be protected from any type of harassment. Agreed; but… In your example, it’s both. In that case, it’s a completely legal and expected part of the process for the justices to decide things, even if it’s things you don’t like. In the case of Snowden or Manning or others, they were leaking something that the government says it does not do, should not do, and expressly illegal things. So it’s not a great example. While we likely agree on abortion; Roe has always been on “shakey legal ground” (RBG’s words) and the 7 justices that decided it could not agree if it was because of the 9th or 14th amendments, and offered no explanation how one or both of these superseded the 10th in this scenario. If you haven’t, read the full opinion, do, it gives insight into what is going on… legally anyhow. So as to your example, it wasn’t a whistleblower or shooting the messenger to find the scotus leaker - it’s literally protecting the sanctity of that institution’s process. If you can’t imagine a scenario you would be upset a decision you agreed with was leaked in order to bully justices or influence a coming election, you aren’t thinking hard enough.
Terry_Roll 4y ago
> It is incredibly hard to get to the truths of these things, What are you a sock puppet? Everyone knows about deniable ops in the Special Forces world, assassinations are not something new, what makes you think Edward Snowden isnt telling the truth? Personally I dont think he's exposed that much, but then he may not have been in the thick end of it. Just read some of the stuff published by ex-military, and if you were a kid growing up around those sort of people, you probably got to hear about it. The vast majority of the population, less than 1% are like Mother Theresa, which means _everyone_ _has_ _secrets_ and today, science can extract those secrets against your will without you even knowing. AI detecting subconscious bias in judges https://www.theverge.com/2019/1/17/18186674/daniel-chen-machine-learning-rule-of-law-economics-psychology-judicial-system-policy https://www.theverge.com/2019/1/17/18186674/daniel-chen-mach... is just the tip of the iceberg. > the media outlets spinning it in their own ways (based on who donates to them and who owns them) makes it even harder Even journalists & news organisations including state broadcasters dont realise, they are giving away secrets at the subconscious level. There will come a point when they want to shut up shop because of what they are implicated in. AI is an arm's race that has no boundaries, and the winner takes it all!
- xpe 4y ago
  >> It is incredibly hard to get to the truths of these things, > What are you a sock puppet? In case you haven't seen the HN guidelines: > Please don't post insinuations about astroturfing, shilling, bots, brigading, foreign agents and the like. It degrades discussion and is usually mistaken. If you're worried about abuse, email hn@ycombinator.com and we'll look at the data. In addition to that, saying "It is incredibly hard to get to the truths of these things" is hardly a convincing argument that an account is a sock puppet, which I'm defining as "A pseudonymous online identity adopted to further the user's real-life interests or to agree with sentiments the user has already expressed online." (per Wordnik)
whimsicalism 4y ago
Given that there is massive interest in getting people to believe that he is an adversarial plant, I would adjust your biases in the opposite direction to offset. I have seen no credible evidence that he didn't do this for ideological reasons.
- jacquesm 4y ago
  If Snowden has an ideology it is 'to do what's right by his personal ethics', I don't see any East vs West or other usual suspects like claim to a pre-packaged position, from what I've read about him and from him he genuinely wanted to make a stand for a public that does not care about their privacy being destroyed. Too bad, really, he took one for the team and we failed to support him.
  - whimsicalism 4y ago
    I don't know when ideology became a dirty word but I was not using it in that sense.
Consultant32452 4y ago
If he were an adversarial plant by some government who intentionally sowed distrust by revealing factual things, would you lean more towards upset or thankful towards that third party government?
spansoa 4y ago
> I still have no idea if he's an adversarial plant by some government He was an Aaron Swartz type who just wanted information to be free. It is clear Snowden wasn't a mole. He just hated closed-doors spying on innocent people, & having their privacy invaded at every instance. His legacy will not be forgotten[0] [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snowden_effect https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snowden_effect

aaaaaaaaata 4y ago

Used to entertain ideas that he was an intelligence limited hangout, but...he's just too relentless & genuine to be doing a "good job" as one! He really does try to inform the People.

ProAm 4y ago

I wonder if the Ukraine war has affected Snowden with all the sanctions? An America, exiled in Russia who has a job and works. Is he paid in Rubles? Is life immensely more difficult for him now than it was 6 months ago? Curious.

nosianu 4y ago
I read an article just today - sorry, forgot which one, and too many in my history to find - reporting about foreigners still in Russia, who refuse to leave. They say there is a lot less variety in stores, but life is really quite normal. Except, everybody really makes sure what to say (and what not), especially to strangers. They report difficulties - or impossibilities - with money transfers. I have a friend with decades of business ties to Russia, he and his (Russian) wife live in Germany but he has a residency-type visa (whatever it's called) for Russia and even after the war flew there several times, via Turkey. There still are quite a few businesses present, smaller ones I think. I fully support Ukraine, but personally I'm content with those kinds of contacts remaining. They - several interviewed people independently - reported that they did not experience any problems from normal Russian people or from the authorities but where treated normally. I think if Snowden just removes himself from public view and does not talk about politics and the... special operation, he'll be just fine, as will all the other foreigners. EDIT: Found it: "Westerners Who Stayed in Russia Find Home Transformed By War" (published yesterday) https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2022/06/05/westerners-who-stayed-in-russia-find-home-transformed-by-war-a77864 https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2022/06/05/westerners-who-sta... Note that "Moscow Times" is not aligned with the Russian government, and is registered in Russia as "foreign agent"- Please don't let the name deceive you. As you can see from their articles, they freely report on the war and the impact of the sanctions and other stuff. There Russian language website has even more detailed articles about Russian internal things, quite unfiltered (Google Chrome can auto-translate, if necessary). > None of the Westerners in Russia interviewed by The Moscow Times said they had feared for their physical safety since the start of the war. Nor did they report any instances of hostility from authorities or ordinary Russians. > But the military campaign has undoubtedly cast a cloud over their relationships with others, making them more cautious when voicing opinions.
yardie 4y ago
From what I understand, and I'm not sure if it's propaganda or not, but the ruble dropped and then bounced back. The only Russians affected by the embargoes are the expats. They have to exchange rubles for dollars but can't. Even NATO members are still buying Russian oil and gas. Cutting it off completely would destabilize their own economies.
- at-fates-hands 4y ago
  >> but the ruble dropped and then bounced back. You are correct. Understandably, the Russian authorities blamed the West for the drop in the ruble exchange rate, and depreciation for inflation. At the same time, they reacted by enforcing capital controls, restricting convertibility, offering more rubles to support bank liquidity and raising interest rates on ruble deposits. Shortly afterward, they also announced that in the future Moscow would honor its euro- and dollar- denominated debts, but would ask “hostile countries” to pay for their energy imports in rubles. Some dubbed this policy the “ruble clause.” The authorities can now boast that the ruble has stabilized. By the beginning of April, one euro bought 85 rubles, marking a slightly stronger exchange rate than before the war began. Western operators are perhaps not overly interested in Russian monetary policy. But what about the ruble clause? Is it little more than a flash in the pan with little practical relevance, or should we take it more seriously? https://www.gisreportsonline.com/r/ruble-clause/ https://www.gisreportsonline.com/r/ruble-clause/
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- iLemming 4y ago
  > but the ruble dropped and then bounced back. It doesn't mean much. If I remember it right, back in USSR time, the ruble rate was about 1.6 for a dollar. Yet people couldn't buy toilet paper whenever they needed it. There was a severe deficit of pretty much everything. It's not going to be like in the 90s - the economy is very different, but sugar shortages just three-four weeks into the war is not a good sign. It will get tough for Russians, which is not beneficial to anyone - not for them, nor for Europeans, Americans, or Chinese.

the_af 4y ago

> I still have no idea if he's an adversarial plant by some government Was what he disclosed true or not? In the end, that's all that matters.

SV_BubbleTime 4y ago
I have found all the “shoot the messenger” of leaks to be so backwards it seems like an orchestrated defense.
- dfxm12 4y ago
  It is, and it's how media manufactures consent for punishing/outing whistleblowers who should be protected from any type of harassment. We saw something similar recently with the leak of the SCOTUS Roe v Wade opinion. There was a huge push to move the discussion from how controversial the opinion was & what the fallout would be towards "leaks are bad & we have to find who did this".
  - SV_BubbleTime 4y ago
    >It is, and it's how media manufactures consent for punishing/outing whistleblowers who should be protected from any type of harassment. Agreed; but… In your example, it’s both. In that case, it’s a completely legal and expected part of the process for the justices to decide things, even if it’s things you don’t like. In the case of Snowden or Manning or others, they were leaking something that the government says it does not do, should not do, and expressly illegal things. So it’s not a great example. While we likely agree on abortion; Roe has always been on “shakey legal ground” (RBG’s words) and the 7 justices that decided it could not agree if it was because of the 9th or 14th amendments, and offered no explanation how one or both of these superseded the 10th in this scenario. If you haven’t, read the full opinion, do, it gives insight into what is going on… legally anyhow. So as to your example, it wasn’t a whistleblower or shooting the messenger to find the scotus leaker - it’s literally protecting the sanctity of that institution’s process. If you can’t imagine a scenario you would be upset a decision you agreed with was leaked in order to bully justices or influence a coming election, you aren’t thinking hard enough.

Terry_Roll 4y ago

> It is incredibly hard to get to the truths of these things, What are you a sock puppet? Everyone knows about deniable ops in the Special Forces world, assassinations are not something new, what makes you think Edward Snowden isnt telling the truth? Personally I dont think he's exposed that much, but then he may not have been in the thick end of it. Just read some of the stuff published by ex-military, and if you were a kid growing up around those sort of people, you probably got to hear about it. The vast majority of the population, less than 1% are like Mother Theresa, which means _everyone_ _has_ _secrets_ and today, science can extract those secrets against your will without you even knowing. AI detecting subconscious bias in judges https://www.theverge.com/2019/1/17/18186674/daniel-chen-machine-learning-rule-of-law-economics-psychology-judicial-system-policy https://www.theverge.com/2019/1/17/18186674/daniel-chen-mach... is just the tip of the iceberg. > the media outlets spinning it in their own ways (based on who donates to them and who owns them) makes it even harder Even journalists & news organisations including state broadcasters dont realise, they are giving away secrets at the subconscious level. There will come a point when they want to shut up shop because of what they are implicated in. AI is an arm's race that has no boundaries, and the winner takes it all!

xpe 4y ago
>> It is incredibly hard to get to the truths of these things, > What are you a sock puppet? In case you haven't seen the HN guidelines: > Please don't post insinuations about astroturfing, shilling, bots, brigading, foreign agents and the like. It degrades discussion and is usually mistaken. If you're worried about abuse, email hn@ycombinator.com and we'll look at the data. In addition to that, saying "It is incredibly hard to get to the truths of these things" is hardly a convincing argument that an account is a sock puppet, which I'm defining as "A pseudonymous online identity adopted to further the user's real-life interests or to agree with sentiments the user has already expressed online." (per Wordnik)

whimsicalism 4y ago

Given that there is massive interest in getting people to believe that he is an adversarial plant, I would adjust your biases in the opposite direction to offset. I have seen no credible evidence that he didn't do this for ideological reasons.

jacquesm 4y ago
If Snowden has an ideology it is 'to do what's right by his personal ethics', I don't see any East vs West or other usual suspects like claim to a pre-packaged position, from what I've read about him and from him he genuinely wanted to make a stand for a public that does not care about their privacy being destroyed. Too bad, really, he took one for the team and we failed to support him.
- whimsicalism 4y ago
  I don't know when ideology became a dirty word but I was not using it in that sense.

Consultant32452 4y ago

If he were an adversarial plant by some government who intentionally sowed distrust by revealing factual things, would you lean more towards upset or thankful towards that third party government?

spansoa 4y ago

> I still have no idea if he's an adversarial plant by some government He was an Aaron Swartz type who just wanted information to be free. It is clear Snowden wasn't a mole. He just hated closed-doors spying on innocent people, & having their privacy invaded at every instance. His legacy will not be forgotten[0] [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snowden_effect https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snowden_effect