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It's not surprising that the cause of the leaks was petty and personal. "Deep Throat" Mark Felt's reason for exposing Nixon seems to be that he was upset he did

It's not surprising that the cause of the leaks was petty and personal. "Deep Throat" Mark Felt's reason for exposing Nixon seems to be that he was upset he didn't get the director job, a similarly petty reason. Ideological cases like Ellsberg, Snowden, and Manning are the exception.

pizzachan 4y ago
I wouldn’t be surprised if they each had their ‘petty’ reasons as well. You have to lose faith in the people around you and the system at large before you feel you can go rogue. I personally burned a pretty significant relationship and my career in the process when the Trump military trans ban came through. I had by that point been hit with many petty injustices and indignities, but it was ban that finally brought me over the edge.
- imwillofficial 4y ago
  What do you mean?
antiverse 4y ago
>Snowden Looking back at everything that transpired with Snowden boggles the mind. I still have no idea if he's an adversarial plant by some government (meant to sow distrust, etc) or if he was genuine from the get-go. It is incredibly hard to get to the truths of these things, and the media outlets spinning it in their own ways (based on who donates to them and who owns them) makes it even harder.
- aaaaaaaaata 4y ago
  Used to entertain ideas that he was an intelligence limited hangout, but...he's just too relentless & genuine to be doing a "good job" as one! He really does try to inform the People.
- ProAm 4y ago
  I wonder if the Ukraine war has affected Snowden with all the sanctions? An America, exiled in Russia who has a job and works. Is he paid in Rubles? Is life immensely more difficult for him now than it was 6 months ago? Curious.
  - nosianu 4y ago
    I read an article just today - sorry, forgot which one, and too many in my history to find - reporting about foreigners still in Russia, who refuse to leave. They say there is a lot less variety in stores, but life is really quite normal. Except, everybody really makes sure what to say (and what not), especially to strangers. They report difficulties - or impossibilities - with money transfers. I have a friend with decades of business ties to Russia, he and his (Russian) wife live in Germany but he has a residency-type visa (whatever it's called) for Russia and even after the war flew there several times, via Turkey. There still are quite a few businesses present, smaller ones I think. I fully support Ukraine, but personally I'm content with those kinds of contacts remaining. They - several interviewed people independently - reported that they did not experience any problems from normal Russian people or from the authorities but where treated normally. I think if Snowden just removes himself from public view and does not talk about politics and the... special operation, he'll be just fine, as will all the other foreigners. EDIT: Found it: "Westerners Who Stayed in Russia Find Home Transformed By War" (published yesterday) https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2022/06/05/westerners-who-stayed-in-russia-find-home-transformed-by-war-a77864 https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2022/06/05/westerners-who-sta... Note that "Moscow Times" is not aligned with the Russian government, and is registered in Russia as "foreign agent"- Please don't let the name deceive you. As you can see from their articles, they freely report on the war and the impact of the sanctions and other stuff. There Russian language website has even more detailed articles about Russian internal things, quite unfiltered (Google Chrome can auto-translate, if necessary). > None of the Westerners in Russia interviewed by The Moscow Times said they had feared for their physical safety since the start of the war. Nor did they report any instances of hostility from authorities or ordinary Russians. > But the military campaign has undoubtedly cast a cloud over their relationships with others, making them more cautious when voicing opinions.
  - yardie 4y ago
- the_af 4y ago
  > I still have no idea if he's an adversarial plant by some government Was what he disclosed true or not? In the end, that's all that matters.
  - SV_BubbleTime 4y ago
    I have found all the “shoot the messenger” of leaks to be so backwards it seems like an orchestrated defense.
    - dfxm12 4y ago
      It is, and it's how media manufactures consent for punishing/outing whistleblowers who should be protected from any type of harassment. We saw something similar recently with the leak of the SCOTUS Roe v Wade opinion. There was a huge push to move the discussion from how controversial the opinion was & what the fallout would be towards "leaks are bad & we have to find who did this".
      - SV_BubbleTime 4y ago
        >It is, and it's how media manufactures consent for punishing/outing whistleblowers who should be protected from any type of harassment. Agreed; but… In your example, it’s both. In that case, it’s a completely legal and expected part of the process for the justices to decide things, even if it’s things you don’t like. In the case of Snowden or Manning or others, they were leaking something that the government says it does not do, should not do, and expressly illegal things. So it’s not a great example. While we likely agree on abortion; Roe has always been on “shakey legal ground” (RBG’s words) and the 7 justices that decided it could not agree if it was because of the 9th or 14th amendments, and offered no explanation how one or both of these superseded the 10th in this scenario. If you haven’t, read the full opinion, do, it gives insight into what is going on… legally anyhow. So as to your example, it wasn’t a whistleblower or shooting the messenger to find the scotus leaker - it’s literally protecting the sanctity of that institution’s process. If you can’t imagine a scenario you would be upset a decision you agreed with was leaked in order to bully justices or influence a coming election, you aren’t thinking hard enough.
- Terry_Roll 4y ago
  > It is incredibly hard to get to the truths of these things, What are you a sock puppet? Everyone knows about deniable ops in the Special Forces world, assassinations are not something new, what makes you think Edward Snowden isnt telling the truth? Personally I dont think he's exposed that much, but then he may not have been in the thick end of it. Just read some of the stuff published by ex-military, and if you were a kid growing up around those sort of people, you probably got to hear about it. The vast majority of the population, less than 1% are like Mother Theresa, which means _everyone_ _has_ _secrets_ and today, science can extract those secrets against your will without you even knowing. AI detecting subconscious bias in judges https://www.theverge.com/2019/1/17/18186674/daniel-chen-machine-learning-rule-of-law-economics-psychology-judicial-system-policy https://www.theverge.com/2019/1/17/18186674/daniel-chen-mach... is just the tip of the iceberg. > the media outlets spinning it in their own ways (based on who donates to them and who owns them) makes it even harder Even journalists & news organisations including state broadcasters dont realise, they are giving away secrets at the subconscious level. There will come a point when they want to shut up shop because of what they are implicated in. AI is an arm's race that has no boundaries, and the winner takes it all!
  - xpe 4y ago
    >> It is incredibly hard to get to the truths of these things, > What are you a sock puppet? In case you haven't seen the HN guidelines: > Please don't post insinuations about astroturfing, shilling, bots, brigading, foreign agents and the like. It degrades discussion and is usually mistaken. If you're worried about abuse, email hn@ycombinator.com and we'll look at the data. In addition to that, saying "It is incredibly hard to get to the truths of these things" is hardly a convincing argument that an account is a sock puppet, which I'm defining as "A pseudonymous online identity adopted to further the user's real-life interests or to agree with sentiments the user has already expressed online." (per Wordnik)
- whimsicalism 4y ago
  Given that there is massive interest in getting people to believe that he is an adversarial plant, I would adjust your biases in the opposite direction to offset. I have seen no credible evidence that he didn't do this for ideological reasons.
  - jacquesm 4y ago
    If Snowden has an ideology it is 'to do what's right by his personal ethics', I don't see any East vs West or other usual suspects like claim to a pre-packaged position, from what I've read about him and from him he genuinely wanted to make a stand for a public that does not care about their privacy being destroyed. Too bad, really, he took one for the team and we failed to support him.
    - whimsicalism 4y ago
      I don't know when ideology became a dirty word but I was not using it in that sense.
- Consultant32452 4y ago
  If he were an adversarial plant by some government who intentionally sowed distrust by revealing factual things, would you lean more towards upset or thankful towards that third party government?
- spansoa 4y ago
  > I still have no idea if he's an adversarial plant by some government He was an Aaron Swartz type who just wanted information to be free. It is clear Snowden wasn't a mole. He just hated closed-doors spying on innocent people, & having their privacy invaded at every instance. His legacy will not be forgotten[0] [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snowden_effect https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snowden_effect
greggsy 4y ago
In espionage recruitment, they refer to ‘MICE’: Money, Ideology (East vs West, religion), Compromise (blackmail) and Ego. Ego includes appealing to someone’s desires for sex, positions of power, or revenge - this case fits well end truly here.
- hag 4y ago
  I just listened to an episode of The Darknet Diaries with an ex-CIA (I think) agent and he was talking about MICE. I'm pretty sure he said the C was for Coercion, but that does include blackmail as you said.
  - hammock 4y ago
    I could see blackmail falling under ego also
    - corrral 4y ago
      The inclusion of "ego" seems like kind of a cop-out, like, "it could be one of these three things, or... uh... literally anything else".
      - dylan604 4y ago
        I've always thought it was pretty accurate and not cop-out at all. At least they didn't try to squeeze in "id"
      - MockObject 4y ago
        Seriously. If ego includes sex, it ought to include money as well.
        deleted 4y ago
        [deleted]
  - Fargoan 4y ago
    Darknet Diaries is such a good podcast. Especially the Student and Saudi Aramco episodes
ameister14 4y ago
Manning was ideological? I was under the impression that she was simply immensely unhappy and dissatisfied with her experience in the military as a whole and so released a huge amount of info without going through it.
- boomboomsubban 4y ago
  While I know much of what inspired her was the depression she was going through, I thought her knowledge of the illegal acts she knew were carried out also inspired her action. It's been a while since I've read her story though, so I could be misremembering.
  - imwillofficial 4y ago
    Vindictiveness based on non judicial punishment and a failing career.
  - kevin_thibedeau 4y ago
    Most of what Manning released wasn't exposing crimes. Diplomatic insults via private internal communication aren't particularly actionable.
    - boomboomsubban 4y ago
      No, and they weren't intended to be dumped in public. The Guardian journalists published the key for the file containing them, changing it from a leak that a team of journalists were going through to choose what to publish to one everyone had full access to. Manning can't be blamed for that. Plus, far more of Manning's leaks were about the wars than the diplomatic cables.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
JackFr 4y ago
Not obvious that Snowden or Manning are truly ideological.
- marssaxman 4y ago
  What else would Snowden's motivation be?
  - jacquesm 4y ago
    Ethics. Which is not necessarily and ideology.

pizzachan 4y ago

I wouldn’t be surprised if they each had their ‘petty’ reasons as well. You have to lose faith in the people around you and the system at large before you feel you can go rogue. I personally burned a pretty significant relationship and my career in the process when the Trump military trans ban came through. I had by that point been hit with many petty injustices and indignities, but it was ban that finally brought me over the edge.

imwillofficial 4y ago
What do you mean?

antiverse 4y ago

>Snowden Looking back at everything that transpired with Snowden boggles the mind. I still have no idea if he's an adversarial plant by some government (meant to sow distrust, etc) or if he was genuine from the get-go. It is incredibly hard to get to the truths of these things, and the media outlets spinning it in their own ways (based on who donates to them and who owns them) makes it even harder.

aaaaaaaaata 4y ago
Used to entertain ideas that he was an intelligence limited hangout, but...he's just too relentless & genuine to be doing a "good job" as one! He really does try to inform the People.
ProAm 4y ago
I wonder if the Ukraine war has affected Snowden with all the sanctions? An America, exiled in Russia who has a job and works. Is he paid in Rubles? Is life immensely more difficult for him now than it was 6 months ago? Curious.
- nosianu 4y ago
  I read an article just today - sorry, forgot which one, and too many in my history to find - reporting about foreigners still in Russia, who refuse to leave. They say there is a lot less variety in stores, but life is really quite normal. Except, everybody really makes sure what to say (and what not), especially to strangers. They report difficulties - or impossibilities - with money transfers. I have a friend with decades of business ties to Russia, he and his (Russian) wife live in Germany but he has a residency-type visa (whatever it's called) for Russia and even after the war flew there several times, via Turkey. There still are quite a few businesses present, smaller ones I think. I fully support Ukraine, but personally I'm content with those kinds of contacts remaining. They - several interviewed people independently - reported that they did not experience any problems from normal Russian people or from the authorities but where treated normally. I think if Snowden just removes himself from public view and does not talk about politics and the... special operation, he'll be just fine, as will all the other foreigners. EDIT: Found it: "Westerners Who Stayed in Russia Find Home Transformed By War" (published yesterday) https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2022/06/05/westerners-who-stayed-in-russia-find-home-transformed-by-war-a77864 https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2022/06/05/westerners-who-sta... Note that "Moscow Times" is not aligned with the Russian government, and is registered in Russia as "foreign agent"- Please don't let the name deceive you. As you can see from their articles, they freely report on the war and the impact of the sanctions and other stuff. There Russian language website has even more detailed articles about Russian internal things, quite unfiltered (Google Chrome can auto-translate, if necessary). > None of the Westerners in Russia interviewed by The Moscow Times said they had feared for their physical safety since the start of the war. Nor did they report any instances of hostility from authorities or ordinary Russians. > But the military campaign has undoubtedly cast a cloud over their relationships with others, making them more cautious when voicing opinions.
- yardie 4y ago
the_af 4y ago
> I still have no idea if he's an adversarial plant by some government Was what he disclosed true or not? In the end, that's all that matters.
- SV_BubbleTime 4y ago
  I have found all the “shoot the messenger” of leaks to be so backwards it seems like an orchestrated defense.
  - dfxm12 4y ago
    It is, and it's how media manufactures consent for punishing/outing whistleblowers who should be protected from any type of harassment. We saw something similar recently with the leak of the SCOTUS Roe v Wade opinion. There was a huge push to move the discussion from how controversial the opinion was & what the fallout would be towards "leaks are bad & we have to find who did this".
    - SV_BubbleTime 4y ago
      >It is, and it's how media manufactures consent for punishing/outing whistleblowers who should be protected from any type of harassment. Agreed; but… In your example, it’s both. In that case, it’s a completely legal and expected part of the process for the justices to decide things, even if it’s things you don’t like. In the case of Snowden or Manning or others, they were leaking something that the government says it does not do, should not do, and expressly illegal things. So it’s not a great example. While we likely agree on abortion; Roe has always been on “shakey legal ground” (RBG’s words) and the 7 justices that decided it could not agree if it was because of the 9th or 14th amendments, and offered no explanation how one or both of these superseded the 10th in this scenario. If you haven’t, read the full opinion, do, it gives insight into what is going on… legally anyhow. So as to your example, it wasn’t a whistleblower or shooting the messenger to find the scotus leaker - it’s literally protecting the sanctity of that institution’s process. If you can’t imagine a scenario you would be upset a decision you agreed with was leaked in order to bully justices or influence a coming election, you aren’t thinking hard enough.
Terry_Roll 4y ago
> It is incredibly hard to get to the truths of these things, What are you a sock puppet? Everyone knows about deniable ops in the Special Forces world, assassinations are not something new, what makes you think Edward Snowden isnt telling the truth? Personally I dont think he's exposed that much, but then he may not have been in the thick end of it. Just read some of the stuff published by ex-military, and if you were a kid growing up around those sort of people, you probably got to hear about it. The vast majority of the population, less than 1% are like Mother Theresa, which means _everyone_ _has_ _secrets_ and today, science can extract those secrets against your will without you even knowing. AI detecting subconscious bias in judges https://www.theverge.com/2019/1/17/18186674/daniel-chen-machine-learning-rule-of-law-economics-psychology-judicial-system-policy https://www.theverge.com/2019/1/17/18186674/daniel-chen-mach... is just the tip of the iceberg. > the media outlets spinning it in their own ways (based on who donates to them and who owns them) makes it even harder Even journalists & news organisations including state broadcasters dont realise, they are giving away secrets at the subconscious level. There will come a point when they want to shut up shop because of what they are implicated in. AI is an arm's race that has no boundaries, and the winner takes it all!
- xpe 4y ago
  >> It is incredibly hard to get to the truths of these things, > What are you a sock puppet? In case you haven't seen the HN guidelines: > Please don't post insinuations about astroturfing, shilling, bots, brigading, foreign agents and the like. It degrades discussion and is usually mistaken. If you're worried about abuse, email hn@ycombinator.com and we'll look at the data. In addition to that, saying "It is incredibly hard to get to the truths of these things" is hardly a convincing argument that an account is a sock puppet, which I'm defining as "A pseudonymous online identity adopted to further the user's real-life interests or to agree with sentiments the user has already expressed online." (per Wordnik)
whimsicalism 4y ago
Given that there is massive interest in getting people to believe that he is an adversarial plant, I would adjust your biases in the opposite direction to offset. I have seen no credible evidence that he didn't do this for ideological reasons.
- jacquesm 4y ago
  If Snowden has an ideology it is 'to do what's right by his personal ethics', I don't see any East vs West or other usual suspects like claim to a pre-packaged position, from what I've read about him and from him he genuinely wanted to make a stand for a public that does not care about their privacy being destroyed. Too bad, really, he took one for the team and we failed to support him.
  - whimsicalism 4y ago
    I don't know when ideology became a dirty word but I was not using it in that sense.
Consultant32452 4y ago
If he were an adversarial plant by some government who intentionally sowed distrust by revealing factual things, would you lean more towards upset or thankful towards that third party government?
spansoa 4y ago
> I still have no idea if he's an adversarial plant by some government He was an Aaron Swartz type who just wanted information to be free. It is clear Snowden wasn't a mole. He just hated closed-doors spying on innocent people, & having their privacy invaded at every instance. His legacy will not be forgotten[0] [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snowden_effect https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snowden_effect

greggsy 4y ago

In espionage recruitment, they refer to ‘MICE’: Money, Ideology (East vs West, religion), Compromise (blackmail) and Ego. Ego includes appealing to someone’s desires for sex, positions of power, or revenge - this case fits well end truly here.

hag 4y ago
I just listened to an episode of The Darknet Diaries with an ex-CIA (I think) agent and he was talking about MICE. I'm pretty sure he said the C was for Coercion, but that does include blackmail as you said.
- hammock 4y ago
  I could see blackmail falling under ego also
  - corrral 4y ago
    The inclusion of "ego" seems like kind of a cop-out, like, "it could be one of these three things, or... uh... literally anything else".
    - dylan604 4y ago
      I've always thought it was pretty accurate and not cop-out at all. At least they didn't try to squeeze in "id"
    - MockObject 4y ago
      Seriously. If ego includes sex, it ought to include money as well.
      - deleted 4y ago
        [deleted]
- Fargoan 4y ago
  Darknet Diaries is such a good podcast. Especially the Student and Saudi Aramco episodes

ameister14 4y ago

Manning was ideological? I was under the impression that she was simply immensely unhappy and dissatisfied with her experience in the military as a whole and so released a huge amount of info without going through it.

boomboomsubban 4y ago
While I know much of what inspired her was the depression she was going through, I thought her knowledge of the illegal acts she knew were carried out also inspired her action. It's been a while since I've read her story though, so I could be misremembering.
- imwillofficial 4y ago
  Vindictiveness based on non judicial punishment and a failing career.
- kevin_thibedeau 4y ago
  Most of what Manning released wasn't exposing crimes. Diplomatic insults via private internal communication aren't particularly actionable.
  - boomboomsubban 4y ago
    No, and they weren't intended to be dumped in public. The Guardian journalists published the key for the file containing them, changing it from a leak that a team of journalists were going through to choose what to publish to one everyone had full access to. Manning can't be blamed for that. Plus, far more of Manning's leaks were about the wars than the diplomatic cables.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

JackFr 4y ago

Not obvious that Snowden or Manning are truly ideological.

marssaxman 4y ago
What else would Snowden's motivation be?
- jacquesm 4y ago
  Ethics. Which is not necessarily and ideology.