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The real question is what will he do if the court orders a fine or specific performance! Can't you just see him ignoring it...and daring them to...what, hold hi

The real question is what will he do if the court orders a fine or specific performance! Can't you just see him ignoring it...and daring them to...what, hold him in contempt? He's completely ignored the SEC already.

JumpCrisscross 4y ago
> Can't you just see him ignoring it...and daring them to...what, hold him in contempt? He's completely ignored the SEC already. The SEC is a civil agency. Court orders are super different. The former can't put anyone in jail. The latter can. They can also, worst case, transfer his assets into receivership and have a court-administered trustee perform from there.
jcranmer 4y ago
Realistically? An adverse court ruling would be headline news, so Musk can't bury the news. A fine would be easier to enforce (you can basically go to the people who pay him and demand that they pay you instead). However, given the dickishness that he has already displayed, I quite like the (completely unrealistic) idea of the penalty being that Twitter acquires ownership of Tesla instead, whereupon they kick Musk out as CEO.
- nebula8804 4y ago
  Now you have gotten me thinking that there is an alternative universe where this in fact did happen! :D I truly respect Tesla engineering and wish them no ill will but what a hilarious outcome that would be.
  - ModernMech 4y ago
    I’m sorry but Tesla engineering is responsible for producing a beta-quality product that is being tested on public roads without public consent, a product which has predictably killed people intentional flaws they refuse to fix. You should not respect Tesla engineers or consider their products as good engineering.
    - JoeAltmaier 4y ago
      Tesla are subject to the same governing body as every other carmaker? ICE cars kill people all the time. Not sure that claim is supportable (Tesla distinct from other carmakers in this way).
      - ModernMech 4y ago
        I’m specifically referencing their self driving features being beta tested on public roads by their customers. When there’s a defect in other cars that cause deaths the cars are recalled. Tesla hides behind a “beta” smokescreen to excuse their defects, which they never really intend to fix (if they did, they wouldn’t have had two consecutive decapitations due to the negligent design of product)
    - nebula8804 4y ago
      Oh please get your head out of sand. Just look at a teardown of their vehicle and compare it to their competitors. They are in a class of their own and they are constantly iterating and improving without slowing down so when their competitors eventually copy their designs, they are already onto the next thing. Yeah ok you don't typically see the engineering, you just drive the car. But as an engineer myself, it really lights up an area of my mind to see how well they challenge conventional norms about how a specific part or process is typically done in a car and then go and do a much better job of it. Plus the cross pollination between SpaceX and Tesla is introducing so many cool things that we would not typically see in the car industry.
      - ModernMech 4y ago
        Tesla's competitors aren't testing "beta" self driving technology (marketed as magic "Full Self Driving" or "Autopilot") on public roads, which has predictably resulted in deaths and property damage. They are not iterating and improving, because if they were they would have fixed the flaw which lead to a decapitation 2016. Instead, they doubled down on their negligent sensor stack, and predictably another decapitation happened in 2019. As a robotics engineer myself, it makes my brain bleed to watch Teslas operate autonomously (because watching them operate reveals how terribly they are engineered), and it makes me furious to think that these things are allowed to operate on public roads around people. > they challenge conventional norms about how a specific part or process is typically done ... introducing so many cool things that we would not typically see in the car industry. Tesla can keep whatever changes they would like to make to the car industry, imo. Challenging norms is sometimes okay but other times not. For example, when the norm is "we shouldn't beta-test autonomous machines on the general public because it is dangerous", maybe we should leave that one alone. Tesla, especially Musk, is responsible for irreparably damaging the culture of safety that was created around autonomous cars circa 2007 at the DARPA Urban Challenge. Back then safety was a top concern -- beta-quality autonomous cars were equipped with flashing lights, had safety kill switches, were operated by trained technicians, and everyone in the vicinity were aware of their existence and more importantly consented to be a part of the test. Today, thanks to Tesla, buggy driverless cars are operating covertly on public roads without the public's consent, by clueless people without any training. What an improvement, and definitely something we all asked for! This has lead to people dying, as everyone has predicted. But does that deter Tesla? Of course not. They continue undeterred and even doubled down. If your friend loses their head or gets run over by a Tesla, will you thank Tesla's engineers for their high-quality products? Will you thank Elon Musk for his "move fast and break things" attitude when it comes to 2 ton death machines rolling around in your town? > Plus the cross pollination between SpaceX and Tesla is introducing so many cool things that we would not typically see in the car industry. This reminds me a of a story I heard of SpaceX engineers having to be brought in to Tesla to teach them the proper way to use pointers. Probably not the kind of cross-pollination you were thinking of. I guess that's a testament to Tesla's engineering prowess.
pavlov 4y ago
It's interesting how conservative icons in America nowadays are men who flaunt the law in the most visible ways. I guess it comes down to this Frank Wilhoit quote: "Conservatism consists of exactly one proposition, to wit: There must be in-groups whom the law protects but does not bind, alongside out-groups whom the law binds but does not protect."
- nebula8804 4y ago
  That is an AMAZING quote. Thank you for that. I need to print it out and put it on my wall.
  - ModernMech 4y ago
    If you want the bumpersticker version, it’s “rules for thee, not for me”
- usrn 4y ago
  Any functional nation will have those two groups. There will at least be the people who are citizens and people who are not.
  - mjmsmith 4y ago
    Here it is in context: https://crookedtimber.org/2018/03/21/liberals-against-progressives/#comment-729288 https://crookedtimber.org/2018/03/21/liberals-against-progre...

JumpCrisscross 4y ago

> Can't you just see him ignoring it...and daring them to...what, hold him in contempt? He's completely ignored the SEC already. The SEC is a civil agency. Court orders are super different. The former can't put anyone in jail. The latter can. They can also, worst case, transfer his assets into receivership and have a court-administered trustee perform from there.

jcranmer 4y ago

Realistically? An adverse court ruling would be headline news, so Musk can't bury the news. A fine would be easier to enforce (you can basically go to the people who pay him and demand that they pay you instead). However, given the dickishness that he has already displayed, I quite like the (completely unrealistic) idea of the penalty being that Twitter acquires ownership of Tesla instead, whereupon they kick Musk out as CEO.

nebula8804 4y ago
Now you have gotten me thinking that there is an alternative universe where this in fact did happen! :D I truly respect Tesla engineering and wish them no ill will but what a hilarious outcome that would be.
- ModernMech 4y ago
  I’m sorry but Tesla engineering is responsible for producing a beta-quality product that is being tested on public roads without public consent, a product which has predictably killed people intentional flaws they refuse to fix. You should not respect Tesla engineers or consider their products as good engineering.
  - JoeAltmaier 4y ago
    Tesla are subject to the same governing body as every other carmaker? ICE cars kill people all the time. Not sure that claim is supportable (Tesla distinct from other carmakers in this way).
    - ModernMech 4y ago
      I’m specifically referencing their self driving features being beta tested on public roads by their customers. When there’s a defect in other cars that cause deaths the cars are recalled. Tesla hides behind a “beta” smokescreen to excuse their defects, which they never really intend to fix (if they did, they wouldn’t have had two consecutive decapitations due to the negligent design of product)
  - nebula8804 4y ago
    Oh please get your head out of sand. Just look at a teardown of their vehicle and compare it to their competitors. They are in a class of their own and they are constantly iterating and improving without slowing down so when their competitors eventually copy their designs, they are already onto the next thing. Yeah ok you don't typically see the engineering, you just drive the car. But as an engineer myself, it really lights up an area of my mind to see how well they challenge conventional norms about how a specific part or process is typically done in a car and then go and do a much better job of it. Plus the cross pollination between SpaceX and Tesla is introducing so many cool things that we would not typically see in the car industry.
    - ModernMech 4y ago
      Tesla's competitors aren't testing "beta" self driving technology (marketed as magic "Full Self Driving" or "Autopilot") on public roads, which has predictably resulted in deaths and property damage. They are not iterating and improving, because if they were they would have fixed the flaw which lead to a decapitation 2016. Instead, they doubled down on their negligent sensor stack, and predictably another decapitation happened in 2019. As a robotics engineer myself, it makes my brain bleed to watch Teslas operate autonomously (because watching them operate reveals how terribly they are engineered), and it makes me furious to think that these things are allowed to operate on public roads around people. > they challenge conventional norms about how a specific part or process is typically done ... introducing so many cool things that we would not typically see in the car industry. Tesla can keep whatever changes they would like to make to the car industry, imo. Challenging norms is sometimes okay but other times not. For example, when the norm is "we shouldn't beta-test autonomous machines on the general public because it is dangerous", maybe we should leave that one alone. Tesla, especially Musk, is responsible for irreparably damaging the culture of safety that was created around autonomous cars circa 2007 at the DARPA Urban Challenge. Back then safety was a top concern -- beta-quality autonomous cars were equipped with flashing lights, had safety kill switches, were operated by trained technicians, and everyone in the vicinity were aware of their existence and more importantly consented to be a part of the test. Today, thanks to Tesla, buggy driverless cars are operating covertly on public roads without the public's consent, by clueless people without any training. What an improvement, and definitely something we all asked for! This has lead to people dying, as everyone has predicted. But does that deter Tesla? Of course not. They continue undeterred and even doubled down. If your friend loses their head or gets run over by a Tesla, will you thank Tesla's engineers for their high-quality products? Will you thank Elon Musk for his "move fast and break things" attitude when it comes to 2 ton death machines rolling around in your town? > Plus the cross pollination between SpaceX and Tesla is introducing so many cool things that we would not typically see in the car industry. This reminds me a of a story I heard of SpaceX engineers having to be brought in to Tesla to teach them the proper way to use pointers. Probably not the kind of cross-pollination you were thinking of. I guess that's a testament to Tesla's engineering prowess.

pavlov 4y ago

It's interesting how conservative icons in America nowadays are men who flaunt the law in the most visible ways. I guess it comes down to this Frank Wilhoit quote: "Conservatism consists of exactly one proposition, to wit: There must be in-groups whom the law protects but does not bind, alongside out-groups whom the law binds but does not protect."

nebula8804 4y ago
That is an AMAZING quote. Thank you for that. I need to print it out and put it on my wall.
- ModernMech 4y ago
  If you want the bumpersticker version, it’s “rules for thee, not for me”
usrn 4y ago
Any functional nation will have those two groups. There will at least be the people who are citizens and people who are not.
- mjmsmith 4y ago
  Here it is in context: https://crookedtimber.org/2018/03/21/liberals-against-progressives/#comment-729288 https://crookedtimber.org/2018/03/21/liberals-against-progre...