5 ms·

I don't understand what you're getting at. Freedom of movement is absolutely a freedom for humans. In places like London, or even New York for a US example, you

I don't understand what you're getting at. Freedom of movement is absolutely a freedom for humans. In places like London, or even New York for a US example, you may be able to achieve this without a car. Are you arguing that all it takes is the saturation of public transportation for the entire US? Or are you arguing that people should just all move to mega-cities? I'm genuinely confused about what you're trying to explain to OP.

nonrandomstring 4y ago
> I'm genuinely confused about what you're trying to explain to OP That people adapt. That deeply held beliefs about the importance of some things turn out to be skin-deep.
shlant 4y ago
yea the "well I can do it so you can to" approach is pretty weak. I'm not sure how good faith the original comment is being anyways, but I don't think this response is very effective regardless. It should at least be caveated with "if you are in a similar location to London" or "your car will be replaced by effective public transit". "You'll adapt just like I did" is not very convincing for the majority of people.
- nonrandomstring 4y ago
  > "You'll adapt just like I did" is not very convincing for the majority of people. That's not my assertion, nor the point of my comment. The point is that identification (and misplaced sense of ownership) makes us very reluctant to be convinced [1]. A point which you agreeing with. Nonetheless, people adapt when change comes. Another example, only just in my living memory was "decimalisation" (and for other Europeans when the currency switched to Euro). My grandmother swore blind the world would end if they brought in decimal currency. Within weeks she was the strongest supporter. In 1752 people in England rioted because the calendars changed from Julian to Gregorian. People thought they were being robbed of 11 days. When the day arrived everybody awoke, got on with their lives as usual and in no time completely forgot it ever happened. EDIT: [1] In fact people can be so challenged by identification they'll downvote the most polite and reasoned of comments to feel better rather than respond intelligently.
  - j2bax 4y ago
    I like and agree with the general sentiment of your comment (people are more adaptive than they may think) but I think the example isn't a great one... What would be your suggestion for people that live in rural areas of the US (we have a lot of them in almost every state)? Public transit would operate at a pretty significant loss in these areas and would be a logistical nightmare. Given enough time, I'm sure some solutions could help make it possible, but there would be significant inconvenience, loss of security/safety in the short term.
    - nonrandomstring 4y ago
      > would be your suggestion for people that live in rural areas of the US (we have a lot of them in almost every state)? Public transit would operate at a pretty significant loss in these areas and would be a logistical nightmare. Given enough time, I'm sure some solutions could help make it possible, but there would be significant inconvenience, loss of security/safety in the short term. I honestly don't think I have any suggestions. Not technical ones. I am neither an expert on transportation nor planning. My comment is about psychology, and to some extent about history. As you say, given enough time maybe new solutions would make changes possible. But also, maybe not. Given enough time it may be that people living in rural areas accept that the world has changed, and travel far less. Given time, maybe the societal pressures to travel will ease. It may be that in time the main attraction of rural life returns to being its pace and relative isolation. These are not necessarily good or bad things, progressions or regressions, just change. To the extent that change involves loss as well as gain I do think that change is like the stages of grief. The early stages, before acceptance, involve various mental tricks to try carrying on as before.
      - j2bax 4y ago
        Yes, the only reason for my comment was that you gave multiple examples where you and family members and historical groups made a big deal out of something and it turned out it didn't have any significant impact on their lives. There are probably few rural folks who wouldn't experience significant life altering consequences of losing their personal transportation autonomy.

nonrandomstring 4y ago

> I'm genuinely confused about what you're trying to explain to OP That people adapt. That deeply held beliefs about the importance of some things turn out to be skin-deep.

shlant 4y ago

yea the "well I can do it so you can to" approach is pretty weak. I'm not sure how good faith the original comment is being anyways, but I don't think this response is very effective regardless. It should at least be caveated with "if you are in a similar location to London" or "your car will be replaced by effective public transit". "You'll adapt just like I did" is not very convincing for the majority of people.

nonrandomstring 4y ago
> "You'll adapt just like I did" is not very convincing for the majority of people. That's not my assertion, nor the point of my comment. The point is that identification (and misplaced sense of ownership) makes us very reluctant to be convinced [1]. A point which you agreeing with. Nonetheless, people adapt when change comes. Another example, only just in my living memory was "decimalisation" (and for other Europeans when the currency switched to Euro). My grandmother swore blind the world would end if they brought in decimal currency. Within weeks she was the strongest supporter. In 1752 people in England rioted because the calendars changed from Julian to Gregorian. People thought they were being robbed of 11 days. When the day arrived everybody awoke, got on with their lives as usual and in no time completely forgot it ever happened. EDIT: [1] In fact people can be so challenged by identification they'll downvote the most polite and reasoned of comments to feel better rather than respond intelligently.
- j2bax 4y ago
  I like and agree with the general sentiment of your comment (people are more adaptive than they may think) but I think the example isn't a great one... What would be your suggestion for people that live in rural areas of the US (we have a lot of them in almost every state)? Public transit would operate at a pretty significant loss in these areas and would be a logistical nightmare. Given enough time, I'm sure some solutions could help make it possible, but there would be significant inconvenience, loss of security/safety in the short term.
  - nonrandomstring 4y ago
    > would be your suggestion for people that live in rural areas of the US (we have a lot of them in almost every state)? Public transit would operate at a pretty significant loss in these areas and would be a logistical nightmare. Given enough time, I'm sure some solutions could help make it possible, but there would be significant inconvenience, loss of security/safety in the short term. I honestly don't think I have any suggestions. Not technical ones. I am neither an expert on transportation nor planning. My comment is about psychology, and to some extent about history. As you say, given enough time maybe new solutions would make changes possible. But also, maybe not. Given enough time it may be that people living in rural areas accept that the world has changed, and travel far less. Given time, maybe the societal pressures to travel will ease. It may be that in time the main attraction of rural life returns to being its pace and relative isolation. These are not necessarily good or bad things, progressions or regressions, just change. To the extent that change involves loss as well as gain I do think that change is like the stages of grief. The early stages, before acceptance, involve various mental tricks to try carrying on as before.
    - j2bax 4y ago
      Yes, the only reason for my comment was that you gave multiple examples where you and family members and historical groups made a big deal out of something and it turned out it didn't have any significant impact on their lives. There are probably few rural folks who wouldn't experience significant life altering consequences of losing their personal transportation autonomy.