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>enemy of the EU, and it's entirely Russia's fault. That's blindness to history and utter BS, please do your research and stop being so uneducated when spiting

by nix23 4y ago

>enemy of the EU, and it's entirely Russia's fault. That's blindness to history and utter BS, please do your research and stop being so uneducated when spiting out such sentences. Damn, you have access to the world's knowledge, it's unacceptable being that uneducated and extremist.

sofixa 4y ago
Oh please, I'm from Bulgaria, a nation split between Russophilia and Russophobia due to centuries of history with Russia. I'm a history nerd and have pretty decent knowledge around Eastern European history. What I'm saying is coming from a position of knowledge, history and geopolitics, not random "Russia bad guys communism" or whatever you think it is. If you're so certain in your version, go on, let's debate. How is Russia, in today's form, not an enemy of the EU through it's own choice?
- nix23 4y ago
  >How is Russia, in today's form, not an enemy of the EU through it's own choice? Why is it? Ukraine is not part of the EU, but the EU and it's big brother NATO aka US is threatening russia since years -> NATO east expansion. But hey instead of having good relations, you force Russia to make a pact with china. You know what happened last time the Warsaw-pact made a east expansion? Hint Kuba....but Russia has to accept it in Poland and Turkey (after all US=good Russia=bad). Thinking that Russia is the enemy of Europe will bring out two winners, China and the US, once more we got played. Not NATO nor Russia is the good guy here, and talking with words like "enemy" is exactly what's not needed now. What do you think happens when Russia has no other choices?
- ithkuil 4y ago
  Almost every time I argue with somebody who believes Russia has been forced to act the way they had it always boils down to this: any peaceful cooperation with the west built on trade and mutual respect of the rules is de-facto a humiliation for Russia who would succumb to American imperialism and lose its deserved place of glory as a rightful superpower. Now, I'm personally coming from a position or disdain for American imperialism and the very same position drives me to despise any other sentiment of grandiosity self-righteousness and feeling that one or another country should have their well deserved spotlight and rule over the others. Yet, the vast majority of people I interact with on a daily basis seem to reduce the whole thing to one camp against another camp. If you're against American imperialism you must be for Russian imperialism, or Chinese imperialism (whatever kind, past and future or wanna-be). It aches me to see how utterly impossible it is to have a nuanced conversation about this without reducing everything to a tram match, a tribal identity contest. I'm in Croatia right now to meet some family, and every left-leaning person is pro-putin (because Ukrainians are nationalist right wing) and every right-lraning person is pro-ukraine (for the same reasons apparently). The same left-leaning people 30 years ago voted to secede from Yugoslavia and were appalled that the resulting war was so brutal and that the west didn't do enough to stop the Serbian invasion. Now those same family members, pontificate that Ukrainians don't exist and they are just Russians, and that the government is a bunch of Nazis, and say other things like that straight from the Russian news outlets. And the reason they prefer that world view is just because the alternative seems to be to accept Americana hegemony. Nobody seems to be able to say fuck to both. Why is it so hard?

by nix23 4y ago

sofixa 4y ago

Oh please, I'm from Bulgaria, a nation split between Russophilia and Russophobia due to centuries of history with Russia. I'm a history nerd and have pretty decent knowledge around Eastern European history. What I'm saying is coming from a position of knowledge, history and geopolitics, not random "Russia bad guys communism" or whatever you think it is. If you're so certain in your version, go on, let's debate. How is Russia, in today's form, not an enemy of the EU through it's own choice?

nix23 4y ago
>How is Russia, in today's form, not an enemy of the EU through it's own choice? Why is it? Ukraine is not part of the EU, but the EU and it's big brother NATO aka US is threatening russia since years -> NATO east expansion. But hey instead of having good relations, you force Russia to make a pact with china. You know what happened last time the Warsaw-pact made a east expansion? Hint Kuba....but Russia has to accept it in Poland and Turkey (after all US=good Russia=bad). Thinking that Russia is the enemy of Europe will bring out two winners, China and the US, once more we got played. Not NATO nor Russia is the good guy here, and talking with words like "enemy" is exactly what's not needed now. What do you think happens when Russia has no other choices?
ithkuil 4y ago
Almost every time I argue with somebody who believes Russia has been forced to act the way they had it always boils down to this: any peaceful cooperation with the west built on trade and mutual respect of the rules is de-facto a humiliation for Russia who would succumb to American imperialism and lose its deserved place of glory as a rightful superpower. Now, I'm personally coming from a position or disdain for American imperialism and the very same position drives me to despise any other sentiment of grandiosity self-righteousness and feeling that one or another country should have their well deserved spotlight and rule over the others. Yet, the vast majority of people I interact with on a daily basis seem to reduce the whole thing to one camp against another camp. If you're against American imperialism you must be for Russian imperialism, or Chinese imperialism (whatever kind, past and future or wanna-be). It aches me to see how utterly impossible it is to have a nuanced conversation about this without reducing everything to a tram match, a tribal identity contest. I'm in Croatia right now to meet some family, and every left-leaning person is pro-putin (because Ukrainians are nationalist right wing) and every right-lraning person is pro-ukraine (for the same reasons apparently). The same left-leaning people 30 years ago voted to secede from Yugoslavia and were appalled that the resulting war was so brutal and that the west didn't do enough to stop the Serbian invasion. Now those same family members, pontificate that Ukrainians don't exist and they are just Russians, and that the government is a bunch of Nazis, and say other things like that straight from the Russian news outlets. And the reason they prefer that world view is just because the alternative seems to be to accept Americana hegemony. Nobody seems to be able to say fuck to both. Why is it so hard?