6 ms·

No, they dislike official state propaganda which is blatantly and verifiably false, from an enemy, regardless of who promotes it. yes, Russia is an enemy of t

by sofixa 4y ago

No, they dislike official state propaganda which is blatantly and verifiably false, from an enemy, regardless of who promotes it. yes, Russia is an enemy of the EU, and it's entirely Russia's fault. In a sense it has always been an enemy for a few EU countries like Poland and the Baltics. Nonetheless, the EU, and some specific countries in it, tried to placate Russia for a very long time, hoping that the same thing achieved by the EU (peace and prosperity through very close economic integration) could be achieved with Russia. It's fully on the shoulders of Putin and his cronies that it didn't work out, but at least thanks to his misguided actions Germany and others can finally move to get rid of natural gas.

nix23 4y ago
>enemy of the EU, and it's entirely Russia's fault. That's blindness to history and utter BS, please do your research and stop being so uneducated when spiting out such sentences. Damn, you have access to the world's knowledge, it's unacceptable being that uneducated and extremist.
- sofixa 4y ago
  Oh please, I'm from Bulgaria, a nation split between Russophilia and Russophobia due to centuries of history with Russia. I'm a history nerd and have pretty decent knowledge around Eastern European history. What I'm saying is coming from a position of knowledge, history and geopolitics, not random "Russia bad guys communism" or whatever you think it is. If you're so certain in your version, go on, let's debate. How is Russia, in today's form, not an enemy of the EU through it's own choice?
  - nix23 4y ago
    >How is Russia, in today's form, not an enemy of the EU through it's own choice? Why is it? Ukraine is not part of the EU, but the EU and it's big brother NATO aka US is threatening russia since years -> NATO east expansion. But hey instead of having good relations, you force Russia to make a pact with china. You know what happened last time the Warsaw-pact made a east expansion? Hint Kuba....but Russia has to accept it in Poland and Turkey (after all US=good Russia=bad). Thinking that Russia is the enemy of Europe will bring out two winners, China and the US, once more we got played. Not NATO nor Russia is the good guy here, and talking with words like "enemy" is exactly what's not needed now. What do you think happens when Russia has no other choices?
  - ithkuil 4y ago
    Almost every time I argue with somebody who believes Russia has been forced to act the way they had it always boils down to this: any peaceful cooperation with the west built on trade and mutual respect of the rules is de-facto a humiliation for Russia who would succumb to American imperialism and lose its deserved place of glory as a rightful superpower. Now, I'm personally coming from a position or disdain for American imperialism and the very same position drives me to despise any other sentiment of grandiosity self-righteousness and feeling that one or another country should have their well deserved spotlight and rule over the others. Yet, the vast majority of people I interact with on a daily basis seem to reduce the whole thing to one camp against another camp. If you're against American imperialism you must be for Russian imperialism, or Chinese imperialism (whatever kind, past and future or wanna-be). It aches me to see how utterly impossible it is to have a nuanced conversation about this without reducing everything to a tram match, a tribal identity contest. I'm in Croatia right now to meet some family, and every left-leaning person is pro-putin (because Ukrainians are nationalist right wing) and every right-lraning person is pro-ukraine (for the same reasons apparently). The same left-leaning people 30 years ago voted to secede from Yugoslavia and were appalled that the resulting war was so brutal and that the west didn't do enough to stop the Serbian invasion. Now those same family members, pontificate that Ukrainians don't exist and they are just Russians, and that the government is a bunch of Nazis, and say other things like that straight from the Russian news outlets. And the reason they prefer that world view is just because the alternative seems to be to accept Americana hegemony. Nobody seems to be able to say fuck to both. Why is it so hard?
einpoklum 4y ago
> No, they dislike official state propaganda which is blatantly and verifiably false, from an enemy, regardless of who promotes it. It is rather telling, that you needed to qualify this sentence with "from an enemy".
webmobdev 4y ago
What do you think about this perspective of the war: > It appears that Germany and France have started to wake up to the Anglosphere’s designs. This US and UK imposed war is hollowing out Germany and France, Europe’s economic power houses, by destroying their economies. The UK is particularly chuffed about breaking the European Union and forming an informal union of Russophobe countries from the Baltics and Central Europe. > Germany now believes that one of the objectives of the Anglosphere through this war was to kill the Nord Stream 2 pipeline between Russia and Germany which was crucial for keeping German industry competitive in the world market. German industrial leaders are crying hoarse over this but European capitals, including and particularly Berlin, are too timid to stand up for their own interests. The same goes for France. > However, sources say, lately, both Germany and France are taking some steps in tandem to sabotage the Anglosphere’s designs in Ukraine. Both Germany and France have either stopped supplying critical weapons to Ukraine or are delaying it to the point where they shall have little or no role to play in the war. They are also wary about the possible wheat shortage across the world and have established back-channels with Moscow to look at possible ways Ukrainian wheat can be exported via the Black Sea. Source: https://www.nationalheraldindia.com/international/100-days-of-war-test-european-unity-and-patience-how-long-can-ukraine-hold-out https://www.nationalheraldindia.com/international/100-days-o...
- KptMarchewa 4y ago
  You can stop reading after "This US and UK imposed war".
  - eshch 4y ago
    because you can proof they didn't i guess
    - KptMarchewa 4y ago
      Yes, US Navy Seals broke into Putin's palace, put a gun on his head and told him to launch war on Ukraine.
- watwut 4y ago
eshch 4y ago
how does it feel to be so sure replicating western propaganda? there's no such thing as entirely someone's fault. you live in black and white. i don't know, was the whole germany literal nazi? well, half europe was. was hitler the enemy of the whole world? well, not until he did his job keeping commies under control. noone cared about jews and racism, ok? einstein moved to us from nazi germany and was shocked by racism towards black. he was lucky he's not black. it's not a tale of good and bad. and it doesn't need to. hating your enemy is hating yourself for the enemy being in your mind, being close to you, being in your news or the same continent. love your enemy to love yourself.
- sofixa 4y ago
  I don't know what the hell you're trying to say. Yes, actions don't exist in a vacuum, however excusing Russia's agression through "oh but the EU tried to be friendly to Ukraine" doesn't pass a sniff test. Russia, today, is an oligarchy run by one man and his cronies. Not all of Russians agree with them, and hopefully with time that part will become a majority. But don't mistake Russia being an enemy with Russians. Some of them are direct enemies ( like frontline troops), but most are just people that have the misfortune to live in Russia.
- watwut 4y ago
  > i don't know, was the whole germany literal nazi? Maybe don't talk if you don't know? > well, half europe was. Nope, half Europe was occupied by Nazi. Which is not the same as being Nazi. Nazism was not about white supremacy, it was about Aryan supremacy. > was hitler the enemy of the whole world? well, not until he did his job keeping commies under control Hitler lost to commies. He ensured them ruling half the Europe. The result of WWII was more land and people being ruled by communists. > noone cared about jews and racism, ok? What are you talking about here?
thriftwy 4y ago
Ordinary Russians in Russia (ones who did not move to Kiev in 2015 like bobuk@ or to Israel in 2022 like klm@) also dislike propaganda which is often blatantly and verifiably false ("denisova site:theguardian.com"), and comes from adversary of their country. I imagine that's why Yandex demotes all the stuff coming from certain Russian-language news outlets. You can be against war without lying or throwing a fit, but I don't know a single news source doing that. I know a lot of propaganda outlets, though. Having that choice, people (and Yandex) usually choose propaganda from their side.
severino 4y ago
But why should a Brussels bureaucrat decide what's propaganda and what's not, in the first place? I can still receive plenty of state propaganda from other states, so yes, it's a matter of our politicians applying censorship based on their convictions.
- dgellow 4y ago
  The issue isn’t “propaganda” in the general sense. It is “war propaganda, denying war crimes Russia is committing, lying about the invasion of a European country, etc”. Your comparison doesn’t make much sense.
  - severino 4y ago
    I've yet to see similar censorship in the EU when the propaganda comes from its allies, like the US. Nobody in the EU tried to keep me away from the lies the United States used to invade Iraq back in 2003. So, no, you can say this is different, but it's not. It's just that the Ukraine war goes against the interests of the EU, while other wars (with more civilian casualties) do not and they say nothing about propaganda.
    - dgellow 4y ago
      Did the US invade European countries with the intent to genocide an entire nation to satisfy the fascist dream of the president? If that would be the case and US media would be used as a weapon, propagating lies and disinformation to support the invasion, then yes, I hope the EU would do the same ban. But nothing like that ever remotely happened. It’s not like you cannot access russian propaganda from Europe if that’s what you want. Their media are just removed from mainstream platforms given that they are active participants in the invasion.
      - severino 4y ago
        Ukraine is not a member of the EU, so I can't see why being an European country would make any difference. Furthermore, does the fact that Iraq is not an European country mean that we shouldn't care about things like girls being raped and tortured by US soldiers or entire innocent families killed for nothing? Russia is not at war with the EU more than with the US, so I wouldn't expect our civil servants to behave like Stasi officials deciding which contents should we, the people, have access to or not.

by sofixa 4y ago

nix23 4y ago

>enemy of the EU, and it's entirely Russia's fault. That's blindness to history and utter BS, please do your research and stop being so uneducated when spiting out such sentences. Damn, you have access to the world's knowledge, it's unacceptable being that uneducated and extremist.

sofixa 4y ago
Oh please, I'm from Bulgaria, a nation split between Russophilia and Russophobia due to centuries of history with Russia. I'm a history nerd and have pretty decent knowledge around Eastern European history. What I'm saying is coming from a position of knowledge, history and geopolitics, not random "Russia bad guys communism" or whatever you think it is. If you're so certain in your version, go on, let's debate. How is Russia, in today's form, not an enemy of the EU through it's own choice?
- nix23 4y ago
  >How is Russia, in today's form, not an enemy of the EU through it's own choice? Why is it? Ukraine is not part of the EU, but the EU and it's big brother NATO aka US is threatening russia since years -> NATO east expansion. But hey instead of having good relations, you force Russia to make a pact with china. You know what happened last time the Warsaw-pact made a east expansion? Hint Kuba....but Russia has to accept it in Poland and Turkey (after all US=good Russia=bad). Thinking that Russia is the enemy of Europe will bring out two winners, China and the US, once more we got played. Not NATO nor Russia is the good guy here, and talking with words like "enemy" is exactly what's not needed now. What do you think happens when Russia has no other choices?
- ithkuil 4y ago
  Almost every time I argue with somebody who believes Russia has been forced to act the way they had it always boils down to this: any peaceful cooperation with the west built on trade and mutual respect of the rules is de-facto a humiliation for Russia who would succumb to American imperialism and lose its deserved place of glory as a rightful superpower. Now, I'm personally coming from a position or disdain for American imperialism and the very same position drives me to despise any other sentiment of grandiosity self-righteousness and feeling that one or another country should have their well deserved spotlight and rule over the others. Yet, the vast majority of people I interact with on a daily basis seem to reduce the whole thing to one camp against another camp. If you're against American imperialism you must be for Russian imperialism, or Chinese imperialism (whatever kind, past and future or wanna-be). It aches me to see how utterly impossible it is to have a nuanced conversation about this without reducing everything to a tram match, a tribal identity contest. I'm in Croatia right now to meet some family, and every left-leaning person is pro-putin (because Ukrainians are nationalist right wing) and every right-lraning person is pro-ukraine (for the same reasons apparently). The same left-leaning people 30 years ago voted to secede from Yugoslavia and were appalled that the resulting war was so brutal and that the west didn't do enough to stop the Serbian invasion. Now those same family members, pontificate that Ukrainians don't exist and they are just Russians, and that the government is a bunch of Nazis, and say other things like that straight from the Russian news outlets. And the reason they prefer that world view is just because the alternative seems to be to accept Americana hegemony. Nobody seems to be able to say fuck to both. Why is it so hard?

einpoklum 4y ago

> No, they dislike official state propaganda which is blatantly and verifiably false, from an enemy, regardless of who promotes it. It is rather telling, that you needed to qualify this sentence with "from an enemy".

webmobdev 4y ago

What do you think about this perspective of the war: > It appears that Germany and France have started to wake up to the Anglosphere’s designs. This US and UK imposed war is hollowing out Germany and France, Europe’s economic power houses, by destroying their economies. The UK is particularly chuffed about breaking the European Union and forming an informal union of Russophobe countries from the Baltics and Central Europe. > Germany now believes that one of the objectives of the Anglosphere through this war was to kill the Nord Stream 2 pipeline between Russia and Germany which was crucial for keeping German industry competitive in the world market. German industrial leaders are crying hoarse over this but European capitals, including and particularly Berlin, are too timid to stand up for their own interests. The same goes for France. > However, sources say, lately, both Germany and France are taking some steps in tandem to sabotage the Anglosphere’s designs in Ukraine. Both Germany and France have either stopped supplying critical weapons to Ukraine or are delaying it to the point where they shall have little or no role to play in the war. They are also wary about the possible wheat shortage across the world and have established back-channels with Moscow to look at possible ways Ukrainian wheat can be exported via the Black Sea. Source: https://www.nationalheraldindia.com/international/100-days-of-war-test-european-unity-and-patience-how-long-can-ukraine-hold-out https://www.nationalheraldindia.com/international/100-days-o...

KptMarchewa 4y ago
You can stop reading after "This US and UK imposed war".
- eshch 4y ago
  because you can proof they didn't i guess
  - KptMarchewa 4y ago
    Yes, US Navy Seals broke into Putin's palace, put a gun on his head and told him to launch war on Ukraine.
watwut 4y ago

eshch 4y ago

how does it feel to be so sure replicating western propaganda? there's no such thing as entirely someone's fault. you live in black and white. i don't know, was the whole germany literal nazi? well, half europe was. was hitler the enemy of the whole world? well, not until he did his job keeping commies under control. noone cared about jews and racism, ok? einstein moved to us from nazi germany and was shocked by racism towards black. he was lucky he's not black. it's not a tale of good and bad. and it doesn't need to. hating your enemy is hating yourself for the enemy being in your mind, being close to you, being in your news or the same continent. love your enemy to love yourself.

sofixa 4y ago
I don't know what the hell you're trying to say. Yes, actions don't exist in a vacuum, however excusing Russia's agression through "oh but the EU tried to be friendly to Ukraine" doesn't pass a sniff test. Russia, today, is an oligarchy run by one man and his cronies. Not all of Russians agree with them, and hopefully with time that part will become a majority. But don't mistake Russia being an enemy with Russians. Some of them are direct enemies ( like frontline troops), but most are just people that have the misfortune to live in Russia.
watwut 4y ago
> i don't know, was the whole germany literal nazi? Maybe don't talk if you don't know? > well, half europe was. Nope, half Europe was occupied by Nazi. Which is not the same as being Nazi. Nazism was not about white supremacy, it was about Aryan supremacy. > was hitler the enemy of the whole world? well, not until he did his job keeping commies under control Hitler lost to commies. He ensured them ruling half the Europe. The result of WWII was more land and people being ruled by communists. > noone cared about jews and racism, ok? What are you talking about here?

thriftwy 4y ago

Ordinary Russians in Russia (ones who did not move to Kiev in 2015 like bobuk@ or to Israel in 2022 like klm@) also dislike propaganda which is often blatantly and verifiably false ("denisova site:theguardian.com"), and comes from adversary of their country. I imagine that's why Yandex demotes all the stuff coming from certain Russian-language news outlets. You can be against war without lying or throwing a fit, but I don't know a single news source doing that. I know a lot of propaganda outlets, though. Having that choice, people (and Yandex) usually choose propaganda from their side.

severino 4y ago

But why should a Brussels bureaucrat decide what's propaganda and what's not, in the first place? I can still receive plenty of state propaganda from other states, so yes, it's a matter of our politicians applying censorship based on their convictions.

dgellow 4y ago
The issue isn’t “propaganda” in the general sense. It is “war propaganda, denying war crimes Russia is committing, lying about the invasion of a European country, etc”. Your comparison doesn’t make much sense.
- severino 4y ago
  I've yet to see similar censorship in the EU when the propaganda comes from its allies, like the US. Nobody in the EU tried to keep me away from the lies the United States used to invade Iraq back in 2003. So, no, you can say this is different, but it's not. It's just that the Ukraine war goes against the interests of the EU, while other wars (with more civilian casualties) do not and they say nothing about propaganda.
  - dgellow 4y ago
    Did the US invade European countries with the intent to genocide an entire nation to satisfy the fascist dream of the president? If that would be the case and US media would be used as a weapon, propagating lies and disinformation to support the invasion, then yes, I hope the EU would do the same ban. But nothing like that ever remotely happened. It’s not like you cannot access russian propaganda from Europe if that’s what you want. Their media are just removed from mainstream platforms given that they are active participants in the invasion.
    - severino 4y ago
      Ukraine is not a member of the EU, so I can't see why being an European country would make any difference. Furthermore, does the fact that Iraq is not an European country mean that we shouldn't care about things like girls being raped and tortured by US soldiers or entire innocent families killed for nothing? Russia is not at war with the EU more than with the US, so I wouldn't expect our civil servants to behave like Stasi officials deciding which contents should we, the people, have access to or not.