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This was Apple Computer's corporate strategy before the Macintosh was even introduced. Something relevant might have happened five years ago but it wasn't 'Big

This was Apple Computer's corporate strategy before the Macintosh was even introduced. Something relevant might have happened five years ago but it wasn't 'Big Tech ... pushing into education', that strategy is older than most people posting on this site.

jheriko 4y ago
i remember this from my time at school, some 25 years ago now, and it was extremely unhelpful to education as well... a lot of time spent explaining things like "how do i do something where i would normally right click?" or that the power button is this weird thing on the keyboard without the universal symbol for a power button on it... once they got some wintel machines from RM, another company that pushed at education, all of that went away and the lessons started becoming genuinely educational.
- samatman 4y ago
  Looking at this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_keyboards#Twentieth_Anniversary_Macintosh_Keyboard_(M3459) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_keyboards#Twentieth_Anni... I see models with a power button, clearly labeled with the ISO standard symbol for a power button, and models with no power button, because it moved back to the case (and used the ISO standard symbol on it). By the time I was 13 I had used mice on four different GUIs so I have trouble sympathizing with your difficulty. User interfaces aren't facts of nature, which is a great learning opportunity to have in school. But learning opportunities must be taken.
  - JonathonW 4y ago
    Apple didn't use the IEC power symbol on their keyboards until the iMac-- prior keyboards used a left-pointing triangle on the power button. But most of these machines shipped in an era where there wasn't necessarily any standardization of how to turn the machine on in the PC-compatible world either-- the now-standard momentary electronic switch on the front of the case came with the ATX spec in 1995. Before that, you'd usually have a flip switch or latching power button somewhere on the case. (Macs were unusual for the era in having power on the keyboard from the ADB keyboard on.)
- adolph 4y ago
  Interesting, per ISO standard initiated by IEC: ⏻: "IEC 60417-5009, the standby symbol (line partially within a broken circle), indicates a sleep mode or low power state." [0,1] ⏼: "IEC 60417-5010, the power on-off symbol (line within a circle), is used on buttons that switch a device between on and fully off states." [0,2] Of note, the slightly different IEEE standard using these symbols was inactivated 2020-03-05.[3] Unicode lists both standards for the character definitions.[4] 0. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_symbol https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_symbol 1. https://www.iso.org/obp/ui#iec:grs:60417:5009 https://www.iso.org/obp/ui#iec:grs:60417:5009 2. https://www.iso.org/obp/ui#iec:grs:60417:5010 https://www.iso.org/obp/ui#iec:grs:60417:5010 3. https://standards.ieee.org/ieee/1621/3344/ https://standards.ieee.org/ieee/1621/3344/ 4. https://unicode.org/charts/PDF/U2300.pdf https://unicode.org/charts/PDF/U2300.pdf 5. https://util.unicode.org/UnicodeJsps/character.jsp?a=23FB https://util.unicode.org/UnicodeJsps/character.jsp?a=23FB 6. https://util.unicode.org/UnicodeJsps/character.jsp?a=23FC https://util.unicode.org/UnicodeJsps/character.jsp?a=23FC
nonrandomstring 4y ago
> that strategy is older than most people posting on this site True. And let's not misunderstand that this was only "big tech". I can remember (being older than most on this board) our BBC micros being ubiquitous in schools circa 1982 under government digital literacy edicts. That was a big win for Acorn at the time. What has changed in recent years is full-spectrum domination of vendor values in education. Hitherto, we've at least been able to install the software we like, even if some vendors (Dell/Novell/Apple etc) pushed for hardware dominance. Later they pushed for operating system dominance. And the end-game seems to be pushing for full-stack application and service domination of fully locked-in ecosystems. That's too much power, and it's not appropriate for schools anywhere. Not to mention that it's ultimately a disaster for competing educational software companies. I certainly do not want to see any child educated with Microsoft values, any more than I want to see kids "nourished" to McDonald's nutritional standards. So yes, it's a very old strategy, and has been a very successful one. Too successful, and has reached the point it needs firmly slapping down.
- vidarh 4y ago
  > Hitherto, we've at least been able to install the software we like If you were very lucky and had an IT department not locking things down. Locking things down in this respect has been a key selling point for e.g. Microsoft for a very long time.
- smaudet 4y ago
  "I certainly do not want to see any child educated with Microsoft values" Not just the children, one thing I have seen as of late is indoctrination of developers in Arrange Act Assert (AAA) - I specifically remember it being pushed because people were indoctrinated in Given When Then - however ironically most people end up indoctrinated in AAA, which is hypocritical to original point... As an adult, constantly seek to push past (your) boundaries, because you are probably being fed some ill-informed BS about how "things should be". There are a lot of other places this holds true for as well, in tech (using the newest but not best performing tech your boss sold out for), in life (having a standard meal every day and suffering nutrition deficit or adverse health issues, eg.)
BeetleB 4y ago
> that strategy is older than most people posting on this site. Indeed. Silly to call it a "trend" when they've been doing it for 20+ years. (At least they were doing it 18 years ago at two universities I attended).

jheriko 4y ago

i remember this from my time at school, some 25 years ago now, and it was extremely unhelpful to education as well... a lot of time spent explaining things like "how do i do something where i would normally right click?" or that the power button is this weird thing on the keyboard without the universal symbol for a power button on it... once they got some wintel machines from RM, another company that pushed at education, all of that went away and the lessons started becoming genuinely educational.

samatman 4y ago
Looking at this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_keyboards#Twentieth_Anniversary_Macintosh_Keyboard_(M3459) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_keyboards#Twentieth_Anni... I see models with a power button, clearly labeled with the ISO standard symbol for a power button, and models with no power button, because it moved back to the case (and used the ISO standard symbol on it). By the time I was 13 I had used mice on four different GUIs so I have trouble sympathizing with your difficulty. User interfaces aren't facts of nature, which is a great learning opportunity to have in school. But learning opportunities must be taken.
- JonathonW 4y ago
  Apple didn't use the IEC power symbol on their keyboards until the iMac-- prior keyboards used a left-pointing triangle on the power button. But most of these machines shipped in an era where there wasn't necessarily any standardization of how to turn the machine on in the PC-compatible world either-- the now-standard momentary electronic switch on the front of the case came with the ATX spec in 1995. Before that, you'd usually have a flip switch or latching power button somewhere on the case. (Macs were unusual for the era in having power on the keyboard from the ADB keyboard on.)
adolph 4y ago
Interesting, per ISO standard initiated by IEC: ⏻: "IEC 60417-5009, the standby symbol (line partially within a broken circle), indicates a sleep mode or low power state." [0,1] ⏼: "IEC 60417-5010, the power on-off symbol (line within a circle), is used on buttons that switch a device between on and fully off states." [0,2] Of note, the slightly different IEEE standard using these symbols was inactivated 2020-03-05.[3] Unicode lists both standards for the character definitions.[4] 0. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_symbol https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_symbol 1. https://www.iso.org/obp/ui#iec:grs:60417:5009 https://www.iso.org/obp/ui#iec:grs:60417:5009 2. https://www.iso.org/obp/ui#iec:grs:60417:5010 https://www.iso.org/obp/ui#iec:grs:60417:5010 3. https://standards.ieee.org/ieee/1621/3344/ https://standards.ieee.org/ieee/1621/3344/ 4. https://unicode.org/charts/PDF/U2300.pdf https://unicode.org/charts/PDF/U2300.pdf 5. https://util.unicode.org/UnicodeJsps/character.jsp?a=23FB https://util.unicode.org/UnicodeJsps/character.jsp?a=23FB 6. https://util.unicode.org/UnicodeJsps/character.jsp?a=23FC https://util.unicode.org/UnicodeJsps/character.jsp?a=23FC

nonrandomstring 4y ago

> that strategy is older than most people posting on this site True. And let's not misunderstand that this was only "big tech". I can remember (being older than most on this board) our BBC micros being ubiquitous in schools circa 1982 under government digital literacy edicts. That was a big win for Acorn at the time. What has changed in recent years is full-spectrum domination of vendor values in education. Hitherto, we've at least been able to install the software we like, even if some vendors (Dell/Novell/Apple etc) pushed for hardware dominance. Later they pushed for operating system dominance. And the end-game seems to be pushing for full-stack application and service domination of fully locked-in ecosystems. That's too much power, and it's not appropriate for schools anywhere. Not to mention that it's ultimately a disaster for competing educational software companies. I certainly do not want to see any child educated with Microsoft values, any more than I want to see kids "nourished" to McDonald's nutritional standards. So yes, it's a very old strategy, and has been a very successful one. Too successful, and has reached the point it needs firmly slapping down.

vidarh 4y ago
> Hitherto, we've at least been able to install the software we like If you were very lucky and had an IT department not locking things down. Locking things down in this respect has been a key selling point for e.g. Microsoft for a very long time.
smaudet 4y ago
"I certainly do not want to see any child educated with Microsoft values" Not just the children, one thing I have seen as of late is indoctrination of developers in Arrange Act Assert (AAA) - I specifically remember it being pushed because people were indoctrinated in Given When Then - however ironically most people end up indoctrinated in AAA, which is hypocritical to original point... As an adult, constantly seek to push past (your) boundaries, because you are probably being fed some ill-informed BS about how "things should be". There are a lot of other places this holds true for as well, in tech (using the newest but not best performing tech your boss sold out for), in life (having a standard meal every day and suffering nutrition deficit or adverse health issues, eg.)

BeetleB 4y ago

> that strategy is older than most people posting on this site. Indeed. Silly to call it a "trend" when they've been doing it for 20+ years. (At least they were doing it 18 years ago at two universities I attended).