4 ms·

A meta-observation: the logic underpinning bothsiderism or whataboutism, correct or incorrect, is that everyone is equally evil and there is no sincere goodness

A meta-observation: the logic underpinning bothsiderism or whataboutism, correct or incorrect, is that everyone is equally evil and there is no sincere goodness, so any attempt to punish a particular evil is itself evil and insincere. By its own logic it can't say that the action it criticizes is wrong -- its own criticism can't be sincere -- but it justifies opposing or at least not supporting the action. The world is just funhouse mirrors. Moral judgment is impossible.

synu 4y ago
It’s like when people say there’s no such thing as altruism, and everyone will cheat, steal, or worse given the opportunity - they are telling you a lot more about themselves personally than they realise.
einpoklum 4y ago
> so any attempt to punish a particular evil it itself evil and insincere. For there to be punishment, there needs to be sovereignty or control over the punished. To legitimize punishment, you must presuppose that the punishing party has legitimately attained the power to punish; or, which is worse, entirely fail to perceive the existence of a punishing party and think of it as some sort of abstract, background, universal, authority.
- watwut 4y ago
  Or, you could accept these as attempt to pressure on Russia, to make it harder and less pleasant to continue victimizing Ukraine, other countries around them and other countries they are purposefully trying to destabilize. The whole "you cant help Ukraine and should not help any Ukrainians until everything is perfect and angels fly over the west" is its own form of hypocrisy. And yes, sanctions against oligarch and Russia itself are weakening the aggressor.
  - einpoklum 4y ago
    I don't believe the US has any interest in "helping Ukraine", let alone the people of Ukraine, considering its interaction with Ukraine over the past 31 years; and considering how it is "helping" or not-"helping" other world states right now. And yes, the US is just coercing others into its foreign policy campaign against Russia under the guise of "punishment". The aggressor which most needs weakening is the one that's able to hijack SWIFT and dictate to third parties whom they can trade with.
    - yetihehe 4y ago
      > don't believe the US has any interest in "helping Ukraine", let alone the people of Ukraine, In this case, "Enemy of my enemy is my friend.". "Not having interest in helping Ukraine" doesn't mean that USA wants to hurt Ukraine. And if it does, well, Russia wants it much more, so it would be still wise for Ukrainians to side with USA. But USA does indeed have one big interest in helping Ukraine. While helping them, they hurt Russia. > The aggressor which most needs weakening is the one that's able to hijack SWIFT and dictate to third parties whom they can trade with. Nope, the agressor which most needs weakening is the one actively shooting rockets and killing tens of thousands of civilians in just three months. > And yes, the US is just coercing others into its foreign policy campaign against Russia under the guise of "punishment" Nope, it's like everyone wanted to help Russia, so they invested there, bought their gas and oil so that maybe Russia is a good trade partner. But Russia decided that they now are strong enough to invade their neighbour and threaten other neighbours with more violence. Yeah, we should pat Rusia on their head and say "good job invading Ukraine, please don't invade us" while Russia makes threats of further invading left and right while telling everyone that they didn't in fact invade anyone yet.
    - watwut 4y ago
      US is actually helping Ukraine. They are actually sending arms there and enough to make the difference. Its interactions with Ukraine last 31 were way more friendly then Russian interactions in any case. > US is just coercing others into its foreign policy campaign against Russia under the guise of "punishment". Nah, there is a lot of push coming from Estonia, Poland, Ukraine itself, Latvia, Czech Republic and so on. This is not even close to US throwing weight in it, no matter how much you wish to twist events that way. > The aggressor which most needs weakening is the one that's able to hijack SWIFT and dictate to third parties whom they can trade with. No, it is the one implementing filtering camps, comitting genocide, burning Ukrainian books ...
garbagetime 4y ago
I think it is simply an act of calling into question double standards. "Are you sure propaganda is actually an evil thing? or are you simply attacking your enemy because he is your enemy?" is a good question to ask.

synu 4y ago

It’s like when people say there’s no such thing as altruism, and everyone will cheat, steal, or worse given the opportunity - they are telling you a lot more about themselves personally than they realise.

einpoklum 4y ago

> so any attempt to punish a particular evil it itself evil and insincere. For there to be punishment, there needs to be sovereignty or control over the punished. To legitimize punishment, you must presuppose that the punishing party has legitimately attained the power to punish; or, which is worse, entirely fail to perceive the existence of a punishing party and think of it as some sort of abstract, background, universal, authority.

watwut 4y ago
Or, you could accept these as attempt to pressure on Russia, to make it harder and less pleasant to continue victimizing Ukraine, other countries around them and other countries they are purposefully trying to destabilize. The whole "you cant help Ukraine and should not help any Ukrainians until everything is perfect and angels fly over the west" is its own form of hypocrisy. And yes, sanctions against oligarch and Russia itself are weakening the aggressor.
- einpoklum 4y ago
  I don't believe the US has any interest in "helping Ukraine", let alone the people of Ukraine, considering its interaction with Ukraine over the past 31 years; and considering how it is "helping" or not-"helping" other world states right now. And yes, the US is just coercing others into its foreign policy campaign against Russia under the guise of "punishment". The aggressor which most needs weakening is the one that's able to hijack SWIFT and dictate to third parties whom they can trade with.
  - yetihehe 4y ago
    > don't believe the US has any interest in "helping Ukraine", let alone the people of Ukraine, In this case, "Enemy of my enemy is my friend.". "Not having interest in helping Ukraine" doesn't mean that USA wants to hurt Ukraine. And if it does, well, Russia wants it much more, so it would be still wise for Ukrainians to side with USA. But USA does indeed have one big interest in helping Ukraine. While helping them, they hurt Russia. > The aggressor which most needs weakening is the one that's able to hijack SWIFT and dictate to third parties whom they can trade with. Nope, the agressor which most needs weakening is the one actively shooting rockets and killing tens of thousands of civilians in just three months. > And yes, the US is just coercing others into its foreign policy campaign against Russia under the guise of "punishment" Nope, it's like everyone wanted to help Russia, so they invested there, bought their gas and oil so that maybe Russia is a good trade partner. But Russia decided that they now are strong enough to invade their neighbour and threaten other neighbours with more violence. Yeah, we should pat Rusia on their head and say "good job invading Ukraine, please don't invade us" while Russia makes threats of further invading left and right while telling everyone that they didn't in fact invade anyone yet.
  - watwut 4y ago
    US is actually helping Ukraine. They are actually sending arms there and enough to make the difference. Its interactions with Ukraine last 31 were way more friendly then Russian interactions in any case. > US is just coercing others into its foreign policy campaign against Russia under the guise of "punishment". Nah, there is a lot of push coming from Estonia, Poland, Ukraine itself, Latvia, Czech Republic and so on. This is not even close to US throwing weight in it, no matter how much you wish to twist events that way. > The aggressor which most needs weakening is the one that's able to hijack SWIFT and dictate to third parties whom they can trade with. No, it is the one implementing filtering camps, comitting genocide, burning Ukrainian books ...

garbagetime 4y ago

I think it is simply an act of calling into question double standards. "Are you sure propaganda is actually an evil thing? or are you simply attacking your enemy because he is your enemy?" is a good question to ask.