4 ms·

Why is that an issue? Every country is guilty of serving propoganda in one way or another.

by curiousgal 4y ago

oleg_antonyan 4y ago
- Monument to George Orwell has been unveiled in Russia - Oh really, where?! - Pretty much everywhere
yetihehe 4y ago
Every person is guilty of using a knife. Surgeons cut people every day.
DFHippie 4y ago
A meta-observation: the logic underpinning bothsiderism or whataboutism, correct or incorrect, is that everyone is equally evil and there is no sincere goodness, so any attempt to punish a particular evil is itself evil and insincere. By its own logic it can't say that the action it criticizes is wrong -- its own criticism can't be sincere -- but it justifies opposing or at least not supporting the action. The world is just funhouse mirrors. Moral judgment is impossible.
- synu 4y ago
  It’s like when people say there’s no such thing as altruism, and everyone will cheat, steal, or worse given the opportunity - they are telling you a lot more about themselves personally than they realise.
- einpoklum 4y ago
  > so any attempt to punish a particular evil it itself evil and insincere. For there to be punishment, there needs to be sovereignty or control over the punished. To legitimize punishment, you must presuppose that the punishing party has legitimately attained the power to punish; or, which is worse, entirely fail to perceive the existence of a punishing party and think of it as some sort of abstract, background, universal, authority.
  - watwut 4y ago
    Or, you could accept these as attempt to pressure on Russia, to make it harder and less pleasant to continue victimizing Ukraine, other countries around them and other countries they are purposefully trying to destabilize. The whole "you cant help Ukraine and should not help any Ukrainians until everything is perfect and angels fly over the west" is its own form of hypocrisy. And yes, sanctions against oligarch and Russia itself are weakening the aggressor.
    - einpoklum 4y ago
      I don't believe the US has any interest in "helping Ukraine", let alone the people of Ukraine, considering its interaction with Ukraine over the past 31 years; and considering how it is "helping" or not-"helping" other world states right now. And yes, the US is just coercing others into its foreign policy campaign against Russia under the guise of "punishment". The aggressor which most needs weakening is the one that's able to hijack SWIFT and dictate to third parties whom they can trade with.
      - yetihehe 4y ago
        > don't believe the US has any interest in "helping Ukraine", let alone the people of Ukraine, In this case, "Enemy of my enemy is my friend.". "Not having interest in helping Ukraine" doesn't mean that USA wants to hurt Ukraine. And if it does, well, Russia wants it much more, so it would be still wise for Ukrainians to side with USA. But USA does indeed have one big interest in helping Ukraine. While helping them, they hurt Russia. > The aggressor which most needs weakening is the one that's able to hijack SWIFT and dictate to third parties whom they can trade with. Nope, the agressor which most needs weakening is the one actively shooting rockets and killing tens of thousands of civilians in just three months. > And yes, the US is just coercing others into its foreign policy campaign against Russia under the guise of "punishment" Nope, it's like everyone wanted to help Russia, so they invested there, bought their gas and oil so that maybe Russia is a good trade partner. But Russia decided that they now are strong enough to invade their neighbour and threaten other neighbours with more violence. Yeah, we should pat Rusia on their head and say "good job invading Ukraine, please don't invade us" while Russia makes threats of further invading left and right while telling everyone that they didn't in fact invade anyone yet.
- garbagetime 4y ago
  I think it is simply an act of calling into question double standards. "Are you sure propaganda is actually an evil thing? or are you simply attacking your enemy because he is your enemy?" is a good question to ask.
cmurf 4y ago
The proportion of propaganda differs, as does the quality and motivation. The resulting differences in diversity of journalism definitely affects the ability to triangulate. While the result from triangulation doesn't have to be accurate to be effective, if triangulation is impossible, journalism is indistinguishable from propaganda and results in a programmed society. We see this in the polls in Russia by age demographics. Older Russians believe the propaganda. Younger Russians much less so, and that's because younger Russians user mobile devices and VPN to obtain alternative journalism sources compared to older generations.

Why is that an issue? Every country is guilty of serving propoganda in one way or another.

oleg_antonyan 4y ago

- Monument to George Orwell has been unveiled in Russia - Oh really, where?! - Pretty much everywhere

yetihehe 4y ago

Every person is guilty of using a knife. Surgeons cut people every day.

DFHippie 4y ago

A meta-observation: the logic underpinning bothsiderism or whataboutism, correct or incorrect, is that everyone is equally evil and there is no sincere goodness, so any attempt to punish a particular evil is itself evil and insincere. By its own logic it can't say that the action it criticizes is wrong -- its own criticism can't be sincere -- but it justifies opposing or at least not supporting the action. The world is just funhouse mirrors. Moral judgment is impossible.

synu 4y ago
It’s like when people say there’s no such thing as altruism, and everyone will cheat, steal, or worse given the opportunity - they are telling you a lot more about themselves personally than they realise.
einpoklum 4y ago
> so any attempt to punish a particular evil it itself evil and insincere. For there to be punishment, there needs to be sovereignty or control over the punished. To legitimize punishment, you must presuppose that the punishing party has legitimately attained the power to punish; or, which is worse, entirely fail to perceive the existence of a punishing party and think of it as some sort of abstract, background, universal, authority.
- watwut 4y ago
  Or, you could accept these as attempt to pressure on Russia, to make it harder and less pleasant to continue victimizing Ukraine, other countries around them and other countries they are purposefully trying to destabilize. The whole "you cant help Ukraine and should not help any Ukrainians until everything is perfect and angels fly over the west" is its own form of hypocrisy. And yes, sanctions against oligarch and Russia itself are weakening the aggressor.
  - einpoklum 4y ago
    I don't believe the US has any interest in "helping Ukraine", let alone the people of Ukraine, considering its interaction with Ukraine over the past 31 years; and considering how it is "helping" or not-"helping" other world states right now. And yes, the US is just coercing others into its foreign policy campaign against Russia under the guise of "punishment". The aggressor which most needs weakening is the one that's able to hijack SWIFT and dictate to third parties whom they can trade with.
    - yetihehe 4y ago
      > don't believe the US has any interest in "helping Ukraine", let alone the people of Ukraine, In this case, "Enemy of my enemy is my friend.". "Not having interest in helping Ukraine" doesn't mean that USA wants to hurt Ukraine. And if it does, well, Russia wants it much more, so it would be still wise for Ukrainians to side with USA. But USA does indeed have one big interest in helping Ukraine. While helping them, they hurt Russia. > The aggressor which most needs weakening is the one that's able to hijack SWIFT and dictate to third parties whom they can trade with. Nope, the agressor which most needs weakening is the one actively shooting rockets and killing tens of thousands of civilians in just three months. > And yes, the US is just coercing others into its foreign policy campaign against Russia under the guise of "punishment" Nope, it's like everyone wanted to help Russia, so they invested there, bought their gas and oil so that maybe Russia is a good trade partner. But Russia decided that they now are strong enough to invade their neighbour and threaten other neighbours with more violence. Yeah, we should pat Rusia on their head and say "good job invading Ukraine, please don't invade us" while Russia makes threats of further invading left and right while telling everyone that they didn't in fact invade anyone yet.
garbagetime 4y ago
I think it is simply an act of calling into question double standards. "Are you sure propaganda is actually an evil thing? or are you simply attacking your enemy because he is your enemy?" is a good question to ask.

cmurf 4y ago

The proportion of propaganda differs, as does the quality and motivation. The resulting differences in diversity of journalism definitely affects the ability to triangulate. While the result from triangulation doesn't have to be accurate to be effective, if triangulation is impossible, journalism is indistinguishable from propaganda and results in a programmed society. We see this in the polls in Russia by age demographics. Older Russians believe the propaganda. Younger Russians much less so, and that's because younger Russians user mobile devices and VPN to obtain alternative journalism sources compared to older generations.