5 ms·

Maybe the universe is a demo written by the gods in <4kb

bemmu 4y ago
I like to imagine the outside universe has no computational limits. When you write code there, you can init an array of 10*1000 elements and have a loop that does heavy math over every pair of them, but it still runs instantly.
TuringNYC 4y ago
I think that was one of the theories roughly suggested by NKS https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_New_Kind_of_Science https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_New_Kind_of_Science though the work seems to have fizzled out.
mg 4y ago
The Mandelbrot set comes to mind. It has a many aspects one would want from a good universe. Infinite detail. But not "boring". The digits of PI have infinite detail too, but when you don't know the algorithm itself, they probably look just random. Which would be boring. But the Mandelbrot set exhibits many nice patterns one can learn and reason about. The algorithm that creates the Mandelbrot set can probably be implemented in less than 400 bytes.
- zimpenfish 4y ago
  I can do you a 276 byte version using `dc`? 2k64sw32sh7sz[.]0:p[,]1:p[:]2:p[o]3:p[]4:p[O]5:p[@]6:p[ ]lz:p5lw/si4 lh/sj0 2-dsxsu0 2-dsysv[0 2-dsxsu[luSalvSblzdsnSq[lqSn0Sq]Sm[laddSoSs LoLslb2* SoSsLoLslbd-lu+Salv+Sbcladlbd+4<mlqd1-Sq0<g]sglgxladlbd* +4 0sr[1sr]st>tLrln;pPlilu+ Sulu2>h]sh lhx[]pljlv+Svlv2>f]sflfx
  - zimpenfish 4y ago
    That got a bit mangled - proper version here[1]. [1] https://rjp.is/dcmando.txt https://rjp.is/dcmando.txt
  - greenhorn123 4y ago
    This thread is quite interesting, if the universe is that simple does that imply a complex runtime? Because DC itself should probably be taken as part of the universe here as well as the OS and the hardware it all runs on. So then the question becomes what is the absolute minimal hardware and software configuration that you could use to generate a mandelbrot?
    - chriswarbo 4y ago
      > if the universe is that simple does that imply a complex runtime? There is a tradeoff to be made between (algorithmic) information specified as a program/software versus an interpreter/hardware http://www.hutter1.net/publ/ctoex.pdf http://www.hutter1.net/publ/ctoex.pdf However, all we really need is a Turing-complete runtime, which can be very simple, e.g. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rule_110 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rule_110 https://beza1e1.tuxen.de/articles/accidentally_turing_complete.html https://beza1e1.tuxen.de/articles/accidentally_turing_comple... One easy way to make our universe is to run all possible programs (even if you don't think our universe is computable, we would still end up running simulations which are indistinguishable to arbitrary precision). We can even apply an anthropic argument to this: that the vast majority of programs are not universes conducive to containing life, but we must necessarily find ourselves in one which is. https://www.kurzweilai.net/in-the-beginning-was-the-code https://www.kurzweilai.net/in-the-beginning-was-the-code
    - mg 4y ago
      My feeling is that there is no such thing as a "minimal configuration" when it comes to universes. Because there is no way to evaluate how "minimal" a configuration is. No matter which elementary property you assume the universe to have, one would have to ask "Is that a complex thing?". Is gravity complex? Is an electron complex?
      - guerrilla 4y ago
        This reminds me of all the episodes of Closer to Truth[1] about the question "Why is there something rather than nothing?" He's absolutely relentless with that question, over two decades now, asking every single famous philosopher, mathematician and scientist he can find. Here's one from around Season 3 around 2009[2], another from season 12[3] a few years ago and so on. 1. https://www.youtube.com/c/CloserToTruthTV https://www.youtube.com/c/CloserToTruthTV 2. https://youtu.be/cfmewf2DoKU https://youtu.be/cfmewf2DoKU 3. https://youtu.be/YkB-phz_2cA https://youtu.be/YkB-phz_2cA
gala8y 4y ago
Not what I really believe (I would rather have some data for that kind of thought/belief), given all the wierdness of reality, I tend to joke more and more often that we live in a simulation. This one (demo) is a beauty - always on the lookout for some exceptional demos. ^^

I like to imagine the outside universe has no computational limits. When you write code there, you can init an array of 10*1000 elements and have a loop that does heavy math over every pair of them, but it still runs instantly.

TuringNYC 4y ago

I think that was one of the theories roughly suggested by NKS https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_New_Kind_of_Science https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_New_Kind_of_Science though the work seems to have fizzled out.

mg 4y ago

The Mandelbrot set comes to mind. It has a many aspects one would want from a good universe. Infinite detail. But not "boring". The digits of PI have infinite detail too, but when you don't know the algorithm itself, they probably look just random. Which would be boring. But the Mandelbrot set exhibits many nice patterns one can learn and reason about. The algorithm that creates the Mandelbrot set can probably be implemented in less than 400 bytes.

zimpenfish 4y ago
I can do you a 276 byte version using `dc`? 2k64sw32sh7sz[.]0:p[,]1:p[:]2:p[o]3:p[]4:p[O]5:p[@]6:p[ ]lz:p5lw/si4 lh/sj0 2-dsxsu0 2-dsysv[0 2-dsxsu[luSalvSblzdsnSq[lqSn0Sq]Sm[laddSoSs LoLslb2* SoSsLoLslbd-lu+Salv+Sbcladlbd+4<mlqd1-Sq0<g]sglgxladlbd* +4 0sr[1sr]st>tLrln;pPlilu+ Sulu2>h]sh lhx[]pljlv+Svlv2>f]sflfx
- zimpenfish 4y ago
  That got a bit mangled - proper version here[1]. [1] https://rjp.is/dcmando.txt https://rjp.is/dcmando.txt
- greenhorn123 4y ago
  This thread is quite interesting, if the universe is that simple does that imply a complex runtime? Because DC itself should probably be taken as part of the universe here as well as the OS and the hardware it all runs on. So then the question becomes what is the absolute minimal hardware and software configuration that you could use to generate a mandelbrot?
  - chriswarbo 4y ago
    > if the universe is that simple does that imply a complex runtime? There is a tradeoff to be made between (algorithmic) information specified as a program/software versus an interpreter/hardware http://www.hutter1.net/publ/ctoex.pdf http://www.hutter1.net/publ/ctoex.pdf However, all we really need is a Turing-complete runtime, which can be very simple, e.g. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rule_110 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rule_110 https://beza1e1.tuxen.de/articles/accidentally_turing_complete.html https://beza1e1.tuxen.de/articles/accidentally_turing_comple... One easy way to make our universe is to run all possible programs (even if you don't think our universe is computable, we would still end up running simulations which are indistinguishable to arbitrary precision). We can even apply an anthropic argument to this: that the vast majority of programs are not universes conducive to containing life, but we must necessarily find ourselves in one which is. https://www.kurzweilai.net/in-the-beginning-was-the-code https://www.kurzweilai.net/in-the-beginning-was-the-code
  - mg 4y ago
    My feeling is that there is no such thing as a "minimal configuration" when it comes to universes. Because there is no way to evaluate how "minimal" a configuration is. No matter which elementary property you assume the universe to have, one would have to ask "Is that a complex thing?". Is gravity complex? Is an electron complex?
    - guerrilla 4y ago
      This reminds me of all the episodes of Closer to Truth[1] about the question "Why is there something rather than nothing?" He's absolutely relentless with that question, over two decades now, asking every single famous philosopher, mathematician and scientist he can find. Here's one from around Season 3 around 2009[2], another from season 12[3] a few years ago and so on. 1. https://www.youtube.com/c/CloserToTruthTV https://www.youtube.com/c/CloserToTruthTV 2. https://youtu.be/cfmewf2DoKU https://youtu.be/cfmewf2DoKU 3. https://youtu.be/YkB-phz_2cA https://youtu.be/YkB-phz_2cA

gala8y 4y ago

Not what I really believe (I would rather have some data for that kind of thought/belief), given all the wierdness of reality, I tend to joke more and more often that we live in a simulation. This one (demo) is a beauty - always on the lookout for some exceptional demos. ^^