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I used to work at a company in Australia that was a pretty big feeder for the FAANGs in the US, and I don't think the salary alone explains it. So many of my c

I used to work at a company in Australia that was a pretty big feeder for the FAANGs in the US, and I don't think the salary alone explains it. So many of my coworkers were completely aware that they could double (or even triple) their salaries by moving to San Francisco/Seattle, but chose not to. Nasty politics, homelessness, crime, public defacation, a general "fuck the poor" culture (on both sides of the political isle), gun violence, cost of living and the fact you'd be leaving your family behind if you left made it an easy choice to stay in Melbourne. The people that did go often intended on going there for 5-10 years then coming back rich. Point is, I think the reason that so many huge tech companies are there is much more complex than just "more money attracts more smart people" and perhaps some other factor at play too.

tluyben2 4y ago
Large market with the same language and more or less the same culture. I am working on a b2b saas product in the EU; so far capital was not an issue really, nor good people. The marketing strategies per country and in different languages are pretty annoying and, unless you somehow go viral for the US and UK, you kind of have to have different plans (including prices) for every country here. French companies are prepared to pay for subtly different things than Spanish companies etc. In a previous product we did, we noticed this massive difference between NL and DE. It was just things that worked in NL really was a complete ‘nope’ in Germany and vice versa. It’s details but enough for companies to not take you over a local solution.
nwiswell 4y ago
> Nasty politics, homelessness, crime, public defacation, a general "fuck the poor" culture (on both sides of the political isle), gun violence Not to be an apologist for any of this, but I find it hard to believe any of these were more important deterrents to the emigration of your peers than our capricious, byzantine, and dehumanizing immigration system. People seem to have the bizarre attitude that San Francisco and its suburbs (which make up the great majority of the population of the SFBA) are some post-apocalyptic hellscape, which is mostly a narrative promulgated by the right-wing media, and with the exception of cost of living and homelessness/housing issues (which are hardly unique among major metros, including Melbourne) it's pretty far from the objective truth. Try visiting sometime.
- p_l 4y ago
  Honestly, the idea that SFBA is post-apo? I finally acquired it by visiting in 2015. Landed at SFO, went through pretty mediocre airport, then visited SF... and went "hey, this looks more like middle east war torn country than what I expected" - and my expectations were already dashed by things such as crowdsourced maps of tenderloin based on quantity of human feces on sidewalk. Thing is, my mental model assumes that other places in USA are probably worse, if not in the same ways. But the immigration system is biggest stopper, even for visiting, indeed.
- makeitdouble 4y ago
  The immigration system is probably relatively european/australian friendly. It's not rare to see people come and go to the US. It's also a constrained problem that you don't have to think about for a few years once it's cleared. In that regard the other more day to day aspects would be more impacting. On San Francisco+suburbs, I think it can't be that bad, but if I'm going to move somewhere, being able to freely explore the other cities/states is nice. Also only judging from the net, I find it harder and harder to understand what to expect for a person of color for example. It seems to vary a lot depending on the city, or even the neighborhood, and there's enough cultural difference that just looking at people's twitter doesn't help much. The picture is either super bleak, or super bleached, with little nuance in many discussions.
- kalleboo 4y ago
  I think people here got the idea that SF is post-apocalyptic by visiting it for conferences, since the area around Moscone is especially bad, you only have to go on a short wander for lunch before you end up in the Tenderloin, etc. The last time I visited SF (for WWDC), I witnessed more crime first-hand in one week than I had in my entire life before (and since). I also witnessed more homelessness than I've seen in any single city.
- padjo 4y ago
  Those issues are 100% the reason I would never move the US. Immigration system complexity doesn’t even factor into it! I earn probably half what I would in the US (and pay far more tax on what I do earn)
- 4y ago
skissane 4y ago
> So many of my coworkers were completely aware that they could double (or even triple) their salaries by moving to San Francisco/Seattle, but chose not to. Nasty politics, homelessness, crime, public defacation Not that I've ever lived there (fellow Aussie like you, just visited it for work) – but my impression is that some of those problems – especially the homelessness, crime and public defecation issues – are much worse in San Francisco proper (Oakland too) than in (say) Silicon Valley. One language issue here – Australians tend to use bare city names to primarily refer to metropolitan areas – an Australian who says "Sydney" or "Melbourne" likely means the whole metro area, not the "City of Sydney" or "City of Melbourne" local government areas specifically – whereas to an American, "San Francisco" usually only means "the City and County of San Francisco", and the whole metro area is "the Bay Area". An Australian is likely to think of Silicon Valley as part of San Francisco, to most Americans Silicon Valley is not part of San Francisco, rather (roughly) 45 minutes south of it (maybe closer to 30 minutes from the southern end of San Francisco proper to the northern end of Silicon Valley).
- piperswe 4y ago
  I'd say for Americans it depends on the city - for instance if someone says Los Angeles or Houston there's a good chance they mean those metro areas rather than the cities proper.
  - skissane 4y ago
    Probably because LA County has over 75% of the population of its MSA and over 50% of the population of its CSA; by contrast, however you define it (its MSA, the traditional 9 county "Bay Area", or its CSA), San Francisco County is only a minority of the population of its metro area. It isn't even the most populous county in the Bay Area–Santa Clara, Alameda and Contra Costa all have significantly larger populations. Similarly Harris County and the City of Houston dominate the population of their metro area in a way in which the City and County of San Francisco does not. I still think there is a difference here between American and Australian usage – American popular conceptions of geography pay far greater attention to local government boundaries than Australians do. That makes complete sense, considering that local governments in the US have vastly more power than those in Australia – here, courts, elections (even local elections), prosecutors, corrections departments, law enforcement, fire departments, ambulances/paramedics, public schools, public hospitals, public transport and land titles are all exclusively state government responsibilities, and in inner metropolitan areas, the state government runs the water supply and sewerage system as well. Americans pay much more mental attention to local government boundaries than Australians do, because those boundaries have a significantly greater impact on their everyday lives.
ulfw 4y ago
I would love to move back to California but had to relinquish my Green Card when I moved to Asia for over 2 years. There is little chance to find a US employer sponsoring a new one. They just don't care to go through the process. Even though it's not too cumbersome.

tluyben2 4y ago

Large market with the same language and more or less the same culture. I am working on a b2b saas product in the EU; so far capital was not an issue really, nor good people. The marketing strategies per country and in different languages are pretty annoying and, unless you somehow go viral for the US and UK, you kind of have to have different plans (including prices) for every country here. French companies are prepared to pay for subtly different things than Spanish companies etc. In a previous product we did, we noticed this massive difference between NL and DE. It was just things that worked in NL really was a complete ‘nope’ in Germany and vice versa. It’s details but enough for companies to not take you over a local solution.

nwiswell 4y ago

> Nasty politics, homelessness, crime, public defacation, a general "fuck the poor" culture (on both sides of the political isle), gun violence Not to be an apologist for any of this, but I find it hard to believe any of these were more important deterrents to the emigration of your peers than our capricious, byzantine, and dehumanizing immigration system. People seem to have the bizarre attitude that San Francisco and its suburbs (which make up the great majority of the population of the SFBA) are some post-apocalyptic hellscape, which is mostly a narrative promulgated by the right-wing media, and with the exception of cost of living and homelessness/housing issues (which are hardly unique among major metros, including Melbourne) it's pretty far from the objective truth. Try visiting sometime.

p_l 4y ago
Honestly, the idea that SFBA is post-apo? I finally acquired it by visiting in 2015. Landed at SFO, went through pretty mediocre airport, then visited SF... and went "hey, this looks more like middle east war torn country than what I expected" - and my expectations were already dashed by things such as crowdsourced maps of tenderloin based on quantity of human feces on sidewalk. Thing is, my mental model assumes that other places in USA are probably worse, if not in the same ways. But the immigration system is biggest stopper, even for visiting, indeed.
makeitdouble 4y ago
The immigration system is probably relatively european/australian friendly. It's not rare to see people come and go to the US. It's also a constrained problem that you don't have to think about for a few years once it's cleared. In that regard the other more day to day aspects would be more impacting. On San Francisco+suburbs, I think it can't be that bad, but if I'm going to move somewhere, being able to freely explore the other cities/states is nice. Also only judging from the net, I find it harder and harder to understand what to expect for a person of color for example. It seems to vary a lot depending on the city, or even the neighborhood, and there's enough cultural difference that just looking at people's twitter doesn't help much. The picture is either super bleak, or super bleached, with little nuance in many discussions.
kalleboo 4y ago
I think people here got the idea that SF is post-apocalyptic by visiting it for conferences, since the area around Moscone is especially bad, you only have to go on a short wander for lunch before you end up in the Tenderloin, etc. The last time I visited SF (for WWDC), I witnessed more crime first-hand in one week than I had in my entire life before (and since). I also witnessed more homelessness than I've seen in any single city.
padjo 4y ago
Those issues are 100% the reason I would never move the US. Immigration system complexity doesn’t even factor into it! I earn probably half what I would in the US (and pay far more tax on what I do earn)
4y ago

skissane 4y ago

> So many of my coworkers were completely aware that they could double (or even triple) their salaries by moving to San Francisco/Seattle, but chose not to. Nasty politics, homelessness, crime, public defacation Not that I've ever lived there (fellow Aussie like you, just visited it for work) – but my impression is that some of those problems – especially the homelessness, crime and public defecation issues – are much worse in San Francisco proper (Oakland too) than in (say) Silicon Valley. One language issue here – Australians tend to use bare city names to primarily refer to metropolitan areas – an Australian who says "Sydney" or "Melbourne" likely means the whole metro area, not the "City of Sydney" or "City of Melbourne" local government areas specifically – whereas to an American, "San Francisco" usually only means "the City and County of San Francisco", and the whole metro area is "the Bay Area". An Australian is likely to think of Silicon Valley as part of San Francisco, to most Americans Silicon Valley is not part of San Francisco, rather (roughly) 45 minutes south of it (maybe closer to 30 minutes from the southern end of San Francisco proper to the northern end of Silicon Valley).

piperswe 4y ago
I'd say for Americans it depends on the city - for instance if someone says Los Angeles or Houston there's a good chance they mean those metro areas rather than the cities proper.
- skissane 4y ago
  Probably because LA County has over 75% of the population of its MSA and over 50% of the population of its CSA; by contrast, however you define it (its MSA, the traditional 9 county "Bay Area", or its CSA), San Francisco County is only a minority of the population of its metro area. It isn't even the most populous county in the Bay Area–Santa Clara, Alameda and Contra Costa all have significantly larger populations. Similarly Harris County and the City of Houston dominate the population of their metro area in a way in which the City and County of San Francisco does not. I still think there is a difference here between American and Australian usage – American popular conceptions of geography pay far greater attention to local government boundaries than Australians do. That makes complete sense, considering that local governments in the US have vastly more power than those in Australia – here, courts, elections (even local elections), prosecutors, corrections departments, law enforcement, fire departments, ambulances/paramedics, public schools, public hospitals, public transport and land titles are all exclusively state government responsibilities, and in inner metropolitan areas, the state government runs the water supply and sewerage system as well. Americans pay much more mental attention to local government boundaries than Australians do, because those boundaries have a significantly greater impact on their everyday lives.

ulfw 4y ago

I would love to move back to California but had to relinquish my Green Card when I moved to Asia for over 2 years. There is little chance to find a US employer sponsoring a new one. They just don't care to go through the process. Even though it's not too cumbersome.