5 ms·

Since you are a start-up and thus likely seeking an exit at some point, I wouldn't recommend it. Spending 10 USD per user/month on Microsoft 365 is a small inve

by oezi 4y ago

Since you are a start-up and thus likely seeking an exit at some point, I wouldn't recommend it. Spending 10 USD per user/month on Microsoft 365 is a small investment but it gives most users instant familiarity with the tools and provides you with tools for collaboration (drafting contracts for instance). I don't think you can save money if you look at training effort alone. In the worst case you will be seen as hard to integrate (and hence buy) as a company because of a weird office stack.

dsr_ 4y ago
The maximum weirdness I have seen: "I think your tabstops are inconsistent." Granted, I don't do complex spreadsheet formatting.
cortesoft 4y ago
Yeah, I am curious why the OP is wanting to avoid Microsoft here. It is one thing if you just want to use open source and maintain that ethos, but if the reason is to save money it makes no sense. Spending $400 a month for a 40 person startup is going to be a negligible cost. If it adds even a few hours a month of extra effort across your entire team, the cost savings are already gone. Use the thing everyone knows.
- NonNefarious 4y ago
  Unfortunately Office is no longer "the thing everyone knows." It has become a hideously dysfunctional mess, primarily because of UI-design defects. Style management stands as a particular example. Now you must wade through dozens of unwanted canned styles to find the ones you've set up... if I remember correctly. For the style mess and other UI regressions that I haven't taken the time to catalog, I switched to LibreOffice. Granted, I don't exchange Office documents with coworkers much. We use (also crappy) Confluence for most documentation; and if I just want to send a document to someone, I export to PDF. I used to love Word. I used WordBasic to automate not only technical-documentation production, but also to parse and rewrite thousands of SQL routines on a DEC VAX system and save my company weeks of engineering time. I hate Word now because Microsoft ruined its UI. Oh, and I detest the continual hounding to log into your "Microsoft account." Nobody wants your goddamned account, Microsoft. We all have PLENTY of accounts by now.
  - kayodelycaon 4y ago
    Personally, I’ve found the new UI in Word to be a massive improvement. The ribbon is way easier for me to navigate and find functionality. Then again, I’m using the macOS version. It still has a menubar for less common functionality.
    - kcplate 4y ago
      I use Office on a Mac as well, i have zero issues with the UI and UX on the recent versions.
    - NonNefarious 4y ago
      I think it depends on what kind of user you are. If you're doing ad-hoc formatting all the time, maybe the ribbon is OK. But if you are used to managing styles and religiously applying them and using templates, I found that the new UI sucks (on both Windows and Mac). The "ribbon" was widely mocked when it came out; I'm curious as to what you find easier about it.
      - heretogetout 4y ago
        I wasn't a big Word user prior to the ribbon so I can't compare before and after, however I've found applying styles about as easy as it can be (select text, click the style in the ribbon). Were they in a more convenient location before?
        kayodelycaon 4y ago
        If Word had styles prior to the ribbon, I didn’t know about it. I imagine very few people knew they existed.
        NonNefarious 4y ago
        There was always a style drop-down in the toolbar. My experience goes back to Word for Windows (named thusly to differentiate it from the DOS version). Check it out: https://www.idgcdn.com.au/article/images/750x750/dimg/m_img_11401.jpg https://www.idgcdn.com.au/article/images/750x750/dimg/m_img_... It's the management and use of styles that I find has regressed drastically. When I press the Style drop-down, I want to see only MY styles. I don't want to scroll through a shitload of canned styles that Microsoft has laden the application with, featuring every variety of color and thickness of underline. The last time I tried Word (not that long ago), there was no way to get rid of this huge pile of crap. Word peaked at version 6, I think. Is there anything important missing from this toolbar? https://www.versionmuseum.com/images/applications/microsoft-word/microsoft-word^1993^word-for-windows-6.0-tip-of-the-day.png https://www.versionmuseum.com/images/applications/microsoft-...
- bluepizza 4y ago
  The thing that everyone knows these days is Google Docs, not Office.
  - kbelder 4y ago
    Only in a very small, insular bubble.
    - freedomben 4y ago
      I don't know, I've worked with tiny startups and bigger companies like Red Hat, and huge banks, and GSuite is very widely used. The biggest corps don't seem to use it, but I definitely don't think it's only used in a small insular bubble
      - ma2rten 4y ago
        According to my Google Research Google Workspace has 19.2% marketshare and Office 365 65%.
        kingofpandora 4y ago
        I wouldn't call 20% "a small insular bubble".
        aaron695 4y ago
        xbmcuser 4y ago
        As the the children using it in schools grow up the percentage will probably change in Googles favour. Cheap Chromebooks and G-suite for schools was the entry to try breaking Microsoft monopoly on an Office suite we will find out if they succeeded in the next decade.
        zinekeller 4y ago
- gtf21 4y ago
  To be clear (as many people seem to think this is about money): this isn't about money. If we switched to LibreOffice we'd donate to the contributors and pay for support. This is about migrating tools before I have double the number of people to migrate. Why do I want to look at LO? - GSuite: it's just terrible, the entire suite misses basic functionality (custom styles, anyone?) and it only works online for me, and there are no files I can access. When Google went down for a day no-one could access a single document or presentation, which is just untenable. - MS Office: better than GSuite, but the latter has better collaboration tools IMO. I like Office just fine, but it's not OpenSource, and I'm on Linux which means there are no offline apps I can use. - LibreOffice: it's open-source, with an open document format. If we don't start using (and paying for) open-source projects as business they'll never become sufficiently competitive, and I prefer an open ecosystem to a closed one.
gtf21 4y ago
> Since you are a start-up and thus likely seeking an exit at some point I don't believe your conclusion follows the premise -- I'm not planning my business around an exit strategy, and we're gunning for being a large, private company not just a quick money spinner. As I've said elsewhere, it's also not about cost, but about open tools and an open ecosystem. I use LibreOffice myself (I run Linux, as do about a quarter of my engineering team) and find it fine (except for complex models and spreadsheets).
- oezi 4y ago
  I get your point about Open Source, no problem. In your intro you mentioned a series A funding and so I imagined the typical start-up which goes maybe to 50-500 employees before exit (or bust). If you are gunning to be a next RedHat or strongly driven by a Open Source strategy, I get why you would strategically invest in being a pure Open Source shop. If Linux drives your business then it is fine to go this way. Otherwise: The office stack is not a core part of your business so go with the thing that causes the least amount of friction in your company for a modest price.

by oezi 4y ago

dsr_ 4y ago

The maximum weirdness I have seen: "I think your tabstops are inconsistent." Granted, I don't do complex spreadsheet formatting.

cortesoft 4y ago

Yeah, I am curious why the OP is wanting to avoid Microsoft here. It is one thing if you just want to use open source and maintain that ethos, but if the reason is to save money it makes no sense. Spending $400 a month for a 40 person startup is going to be a negligible cost. If it adds even a few hours a month of extra effort across your entire team, the cost savings are already gone. Use the thing everyone knows.

NonNefarious 4y ago
Unfortunately Office is no longer "the thing everyone knows." It has become a hideously dysfunctional mess, primarily because of UI-design defects. Style management stands as a particular example. Now you must wade through dozens of unwanted canned styles to find the ones you've set up... if I remember correctly. For the style mess and other UI regressions that I haven't taken the time to catalog, I switched to LibreOffice. Granted, I don't exchange Office documents with coworkers much. We use (also crappy) Confluence for most documentation; and if I just want to send a document to someone, I export to PDF. I used to love Word. I used WordBasic to automate not only technical-documentation production, but also to parse and rewrite thousands of SQL routines on a DEC VAX system and save my company weeks of engineering time. I hate Word now because Microsoft ruined its UI. Oh, and I detest the continual hounding to log into your "Microsoft account." Nobody wants your goddamned account, Microsoft. We all have PLENTY of accounts by now.
- kayodelycaon 4y ago
  Personally, I’ve found the new UI in Word to be a massive improvement. The ribbon is way easier for me to navigate and find functionality. Then again, I’m using the macOS version. It still has a menubar for less common functionality.
  - kcplate 4y ago
    I use Office on a Mac as well, i have zero issues with the UI and UX on the recent versions.
  - NonNefarious 4y ago
    I think it depends on what kind of user you are. If you're doing ad-hoc formatting all the time, maybe the ribbon is OK. But if you are used to managing styles and religiously applying them and using templates, I found that the new UI sucks (on both Windows and Mac). The "ribbon" was widely mocked when it came out; I'm curious as to what you find easier about it.
    - heretogetout 4y ago
      I wasn't a big Word user prior to the ribbon so I can't compare before and after, however I've found applying styles about as easy as it can be (select text, click the style in the ribbon). Were they in a more convenient location before?
      - kayodelycaon 4y ago
        If Word had styles prior to the ribbon, I didn’t know about it. I imagine very few people knew they existed.
      - NonNefarious 4y ago
        There was always a style drop-down in the toolbar. My experience goes back to Word for Windows (named thusly to differentiate it from the DOS version). Check it out: https://www.idgcdn.com.au/article/images/750x750/dimg/m_img_11401.jpg https://www.idgcdn.com.au/article/images/750x750/dimg/m_img_... It's the management and use of styles that I find has regressed drastically. When I press the Style drop-down, I want to see only MY styles. I don't want to scroll through a shitload of canned styles that Microsoft has laden the application with, featuring every variety of color and thickness of underline. The last time I tried Word (not that long ago), there was no way to get rid of this huge pile of crap. Word peaked at version 6, I think. Is there anything important missing from this toolbar? https://www.versionmuseum.com/images/applications/microsoft-word/microsoft-word^1993^word-for-windows-6.0-tip-of-the-day.png https://www.versionmuseum.com/images/applications/microsoft-...
bluepizza 4y ago
The thing that everyone knows these days is Google Docs, not Office.
- kbelder 4y ago
  Only in a very small, insular bubble.
  - freedomben 4y ago
    I don't know, I've worked with tiny startups and bigger companies like Red Hat, and huge banks, and GSuite is very widely used. The biggest corps don't seem to use it, but I definitely don't think it's only used in a small insular bubble
    - ma2rten 4y ago
      According to my Google Research Google Workspace has 19.2% marketshare and Office 365 65%.
      - kingofpandora 4y ago
        I wouldn't call 20% "a small insular bubble".
        aaron695 4y ago
      - xbmcuser 4y ago
        As the the children using it in schools grow up the percentage will probably change in Googles favour. Cheap Chromebooks and G-suite for schools was the entry to try breaking Microsoft monopoly on an Office suite we will find out if they succeeded in the next decade.
        zinekeller 4y ago
gtf21 4y ago
To be clear (as many people seem to think this is about money): this isn't about money. If we switched to LibreOffice we'd donate to the contributors and pay for support. This is about migrating tools before I have double the number of people to migrate. Why do I want to look at LO? - GSuite: it's just terrible, the entire suite misses basic functionality (custom styles, anyone?) and it only works online for me, and there are no files I can access. When Google went down for a day no-one could access a single document or presentation, which is just untenable. - MS Office: better than GSuite, but the latter has better collaboration tools IMO. I like Office just fine, but it's not OpenSource, and I'm on Linux which means there are no offline apps I can use. - LibreOffice: it's open-source, with an open document format. If we don't start using (and paying for) open-source projects as business they'll never become sufficiently competitive, and I prefer an open ecosystem to a closed one.

gtf21 4y ago

> Since you are a start-up and thus likely seeking an exit at some point I don't believe your conclusion follows the premise -- I'm not planning my business around an exit strategy, and we're gunning for being a large, private company not just a quick money spinner. As I've said elsewhere, it's also not about cost, but about open tools and an open ecosystem. I use LibreOffice myself (I run Linux, as do about a quarter of my engineering team) and find it fine (except for complex models and spreadsheets).

oezi 4y ago
I get your point about Open Source, no problem. In your intro you mentioned a series A funding and so I imagined the typical start-up which goes maybe to 50-500 employees before exit (or bust). If you are gunning to be a next RedHat or strongly driven by a Open Source strategy, I get why you would strategically invest in being a pure Open Source shop. If Linux drives your business then it is fine to go this way. Otherwise: The office stack is not a core part of your business so go with the thing that causes the least amount of friction in your company for a modest price.