4 ms·

> It is infuriating to read about “unpaid internship”. Why is this still a thing, in 2022? Because the demand for training is high and the demand for entry lev

> It is infuriating to read about “unpaid internship”. Why is this still a thing, in 2022? Because the demand for training is high and the demand for entry level staff low. See also acting, the arts in general, publishing. One alternative is the system the US uses for union work in the building trades where you can get trainee work if you are related to someone in the union.

ChuckNorris89 4y ago
>the demand for entry level staff low But what about the red hot jobs market and the workers' shortage, everyone's been talking about?
- astrange 4y ago
  Are they talking about that in Denmark for people who work at 3 star Michelin restaurants? It seems like this is an irrational industry you go into for aesthetic reasons rather than a normal job.
j7ake 4y ago
It’s hypocritical of European cultures to tout their great social benefits and stable employment while having an entire underclass of unpaid and abused employees that don’t get fair treatment from everybody else in society.
- barry-cotter 4y ago
  Europeans aren’t morally posturing over this though. This is an American site, run by Americans, where most of the readers and commenters are American. American leftists love to talk about how great Europe is, sure. If people want to spend years of their life doing unpaid labor so they can get high status badly paid work those are their own choices. Seems like a poor choice to me but adults are free to make stupid choices in many areas.
  - j7ake 4y ago
    As a young person in some countries in Europe, some have no choice but to go through a period of unpaid internships before they get a full time job. It’s a consequence of high labour costs, high minimum wage, and government regulations on employment terms. What happens then is that wages between 0 and minimum wage are floored to zero.
    - barry-cotter 4y ago
      > As a young person in some countries in Europe, some have no choice but to go through a period of unpaid internships before they get a full time job. Yes, I understand that people who refuse to do the kinds of jobs working class people do don’t do working class jobs, even part time, or over the summer to earn money. Given that and the factors you mentioned Italians, French and Spanish particularly either do internships as part of their studies as a gatekeeping exercise to show they can afford to work without pay and are of the right class, or they go actual where entry level pay is bad but existent before going home. When one of my college friends went to Paris to do the internship he was doing as part of his degree that was unpaid. The difference between him and the French students doing their stage was that he was working at McDonalds as well to support himself.
akudha 4y ago
Why should this be a supply and demand issue? We are talking about human beings, not furniture! Shouldn’t there be a universal law that says “nobody should be employed for free, in any capacity, at any time”, to hell with supply and demand. After all this is why the concept of minimum wage (however bad it is, it is still greater than zero) exists, no? Why doesn’t it apply to interns?
- barry-cotter 4y ago
  > Shouldn’t there be a universal law that says “nobody should be employed for free, in any capacity, at any time”, to hell with supply and demand. That would be a great way to ensure access to low level jobs is gated by social class, yes. If demand for jobs greatly exceeds supply and you have to pay them as well you can demand a lot of side bribes or raise the minimum qualifications until you keep out the wrong sort of people. Minimum qualifications a Master’s, or you have to come from the right school, that sort of thing. Are you related to anyone who could be useful? That’s why supply and demand is always relevant. > After all this is why the concept of minimum wage (however bad it is, it is still greater than zero) exists, no? Why doesn’t it apply to interns? Because no one gives a crap about social climbers who are transparently trying to get into a job because it has high social status. We don’t make trying to make a living as an artist illegal either. People only have so much ability to care and they mostly do not choose to care about who goes into industries that are for the children of people with money or occasionally those who have very supportive spouses.

ChuckNorris89 4y ago

>the demand for entry level staff low But what about the red hot jobs market and the workers' shortage, everyone's been talking about?

astrange 4y ago
Are they talking about that in Denmark for people who work at 3 star Michelin restaurants? It seems like this is an irrational industry you go into for aesthetic reasons rather than a normal job.

j7ake 4y ago

It’s hypocritical of European cultures to tout their great social benefits and stable employment while having an entire underclass of unpaid and abused employees that don’t get fair treatment from everybody else in society.

barry-cotter 4y ago
Europeans aren’t morally posturing over this though. This is an American site, run by Americans, where most of the readers and commenters are American. American leftists love to talk about how great Europe is, sure. If people want to spend years of their life doing unpaid labor so they can get high status badly paid work those are their own choices. Seems like a poor choice to me but adults are free to make stupid choices in many areas.
- j7ake 4y ago
  As a young person in some countries in Europe, some have no choice but to go through a period of unpaid internships before they get a full time job. It’s a consequence of high labour costs, high minimum wage, and government regulations on employment terms. What happens then is that wages between 0 and minimum wage are floored to zero.
  - barry-cotter 4y ago
    > As a young person in some countries in Europe, some have no choice but to go through a period of unpaid internships before they get a full time job. Yes, I understand that people who refuse to do the kinds of jobs working class people do don’t do working class jobs, even part time, or over the summer to earn money. Given that and the factors you mentioned Italians, French and Spanish particularly either do internships as part of their studies as a gatekeeping exercise to show they can afford to work without pay and are of the right class, or they go actual where entry level pay is bad but existent before going home. When one of my college friends went to Paris to do the internship he was doing as part of his degree that was unpaid. The difference between him and the French students doing their stage was that he was working at McDonalds as well to support himself.

akudha 4y ago

Why should this be a supply and demand issue? We are talking about human beings, not furniture! Shouldn’t there be a universal law that says “nobody should be employed for free, in any capacity, at any time”, to hell with supply and demand. After all this is why the concept of minimum wage (however bad it is, it is still greater than zero) exists, no? Why doesn’t it apply to interns?

barry-cotter 4y ago
> Shouldn’t there be a universal law that says “nobody should be employed for free, in any capacity, at any time”, to hell with supply and demand. That would be a great way to ensure access to low level jobs is gated by social class, yes. If demand for jobs greatly exceeds supply and you have to pay them as well you can demand a lot of side bribes or raise the minimum qualifications until you keep out the wrong sort of people. Minimum qualifications a Master’s, or you have to come from the right school, that sort of thing. Are you related to anyone who could be useful? That’s why supply and demand is always relevant. > After all this is why the concept of minimum wage (however bad it is, it is still greater than zero) exists, no? Why doesn’t it apply to interns? Because no one gives a crap about social climbers who are transparently trying to get into a job because it has high social status. We don’t make trying to make a living as an artist illegal either. People only have so much ability to care and they mostly do not choose to care about who goes into industries that are for the children of people with money or occasionally those who have very supportive spouses.