6 ms·

How Big Tech Turned Work into a Religion

53 points by nkzednan 4y ago

mathgladiator 4y ago
As a former big tech engineering leader, I found it very useful to state 'I believe' as a way to channel and promote the 'why'. Learned from Simon Sinek. Low and behold, that shit works.
bjornsing 4y ago
> Is work where you look for belonging, identity, and transcendence? Yes, to some extent. And I think that’s fine.
timcavel 4y ago
dubswithus 4y ago
I'm going to read this book. Looks very interesting and perhaps explains a lot of the exuberance.
EddieDante 4y ago
We need a new New Atheism to push against the religion of work, then. Preferably one that doesn't decide to branch into social gospel sans gospel as too many of the original New Atheists did because they couldn't figure out how to make their lives meaningful without a Cause.
- timcavel 4y ago
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- klyrs 4y ago
  I've heard some accuse Gen Z of dropping out altogether because of the futility of it all. In that case, New Atheism is nihilism.
  - EddieDante 4y ago
    I suspect these people used to call Gen X kids "slackers", too. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Generation_X https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Generation_X
  - orangepurple 4y ago
    It's not just "Gen Z" that is doing it. Look up "lying flat." It's not limited to China. From the wiki: Tang ping (Chinese: 躺平; pinyin: tǎng píng; lit. 'lying flat') is a lifestyle and social protest movement in China beginning in April 2021. It is a rejection of societal pressures to overwork, such as in the 996 working hour system, which is often regarded as a rat race with ever diminishing returns. Those who participate in tang ping instead choose to "lie down flat and get over the beatings" via a low-desire, more indifferent attitude towards life. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tang_ping https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tang_ping
- toomuchtodo 4y ago
  Unions. Collective organizing provides for power to push back against workism and those who make their work their identity. Without doing so, corporations and capitalism will squeeze workers until there’s nothing left, for the benefit of the shareholders.
  - bjornsing 4y ago
    Why don’t we exchange citizenships? ;) I’m Swedish. You’ll love it here. (BTW, you’ll make $55k a year as senior engineer. But that’s worth it, right?)
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
    - toomuchtodo 4y ago
      Absolutely. When was the last time you were worried about your kid getting gunned down at school, going bankrupt from medical expenses, or unable to find housing due to housing costs increasing faster than wages. Looking at a sole metric instead of quality of life holistically leads to suboptimal optimization. Total comp in the US is only good for two things: living okay in a dystopian hellscape or aggregating wealth as part of an exit strategy.
mgh2 4y ago
It wasn't, until it was: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29903457 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29903457 Btw, some contrarian critics on her book, would love to hear from HN too: https://www.amazon.com/Work-Pray-Code-Becomes-Religion/dp/0691219087/ref=sr_1_1?crid=3A9F1SDM99SSH&keywords=Work+Pray+Code&qid=1654479500&sprefix=work+pray+code%2Caps%2C289&sr=8-1#customerReviews https://www.amazon.com/Work-Pray-Code-Becomes-Religion/dp/06...
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
strngeattractor 4y ago
Alcoholism is probably a better metaphor....an alcoholics penchant for work
- bongoman37 4y ago
1sembiyan 4y ago
People have been discovering solace in work for a long time now; it can’t be just a Silicon Valley thing. Specifically I am thinking of some of the examples found in Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi’s works.
onetokeoverthe 4y ago
tsuujin 4y ago
I have worked for Bay Area companies which follow the Silicon Valley gospel a couple of times, and I have a fundamental disagreement with the idea that finding solace in work is inherently good. My experience with this culture is that it is more cult than religion. You are expected to live for the work, give your all for the work, and love the work above all things. If you value anything above work—for example, time with your children—then you are not worthy of the work. In fact, you have no worth at all. Your free time should be spent studying for the work. You should sleep at the office with your coworkers over the weekend in “voluntary” hackathons to make the work closer to completion. Most importantly, if you suggest that the work should maybe not be the only thing in your life, you are not worthy of the work and you should feel shame. If you don’t, your code family will help you to feel it. Obviously I had some bad experiences, but I know that I’m not alone. I wonder honestly if anyone interviewing Silicon Valley tech people would have a chance at an honest, healthy assessment of work/life balance. Finding value in what you do is fine, it’s healthy, it’s important; I just don’t think the Silicon Valley culture is one anyone should be emulating. It’s ok to go to work because it’s a means to an end.
- bjornsing 4y ago
  I’ve spent a lot of time in the opposite work culture: Sweden. It has its pros and cons, but to be honest I’d move to Silicon Valley in a heartbeat if it wasn’t for the bureaucracy involved. > It’s ok to go to work because it’s a means to an end. Sure, that should be okay. But if someone wants to spend their free time studying, should that not be allowed? Should they be passed up for promotion because of it? Should your “code family” help you feel shame for it? It’s not easy to strike a good balance between those who do seek self-realization in work and those who see it as a means to an end. Instead of having these two groups fight it out in every workplace I think society should provide opportunities for both. (But you can’t complain if those that prioritize work over everything else have more interesting and rewarding careers.)
  - ZeroGravitas 4y ago
    If you make the same argument for people spending time in the office, you might see the problem. It's a race to the bottom. Sure that one guy with no friends or family has nowhere else to go, so he doesn't care, but if he gets rewarded for it, everyone else gets dragged in and we've decided that long hours aren't productive anyway, and certainly don't replace the time spent with friends and family. Taking risks is another, more extreme, example. What if someone has terminal cancer or just doesn't care if he lives? There's probably many jobs they can do faster since they're not trying particular hard to stay alive. It's maybe harder to see the problem when someone is super keen on their work, but I think we'd all be better off if they channelled that energy into something else of equal mental stimulation separate from their work.
alvperez82 4y ago
I suffered that for 8 years and my company was not a "Big Tech", thank you Lord for taking me out of that place!

53 points by nkzednan 4y ago

As a former big tech engineering leader, I found it very useful to state 'I believe' as a way to channel and promote the 'why'. Learned from Simon Sinek. Low and behold, that shit works.

bjornsing 4y ago

> Is work where you look for belonging, identity, and transcendence? Yes, to some extent. And I think that’s fine.

timcavel 4y ago

dubswithus 4y ago

I'm going to read this book. Looks very interesting and perhaps explains a lot of the exuberance.

EddieDante 4y ago

We need a new New Atheism to push against the religion of work, then. Preferably one that doesn't decide to branch into social gospel sans gospel as too many of the original New Atheists did because they couldn't figure out how to make their lives meaningful without a Cause.

timcavel 4y ago
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
klyrs 4y ago
I've heard some accuse Gen Z of dropping out altogether because of the futility of it all. In that case, New Atheism is nihilism.
- EddieDante 4y ago
  I suspect these people used to call Gen X kids "slackers", too. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Generation_X https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Generation_X
- orangepurple 4y ago
  It's not just "Gen Z" that is doing it. Look up "lying flat." It's not limited to China. From the wiki: Tang ping (Chinese: 躺平; pinyin: tǎng píng; lit. 'lying flat') is a lifestyle and social protest movement in China beginning in April 2021. It is a rejection of societal pressures to overwork, such as in the 996 working hour system, which is often regarded as a rat race with ever diminishing returns. Those who participate in tang ping instead choose to "lie down flat and get over the beatings" via a low-desire, more indifferent attitude towards life. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tang_ping https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tang_ping
toomuchtodo 4y ago
Unions. Collective organizing provides for power to push back against workism and those who make their work their identity. Without doing so, corporations and capitalism will squeeze workers until there’s nothing left, for the benefit of the shareholders.
- bjornsing 4y ago
  Why don’t we exchange citizenships? ;) I’m Swedish. You’ll love it here. (BTW, you’ll make $55k a year as senior engineer. But that’s worth it, right?)
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - toomuchtodo 4y ago
    Absolutely. When was the last time you were worried about your kid getting gunned down at school, going bankrupt from medical expenses, or unable to find housing due to housing costs increasing faster than wages. Looking at a sole metric instead of quality of life holistically leads to suboptimal optimization. Total comp in the US is only good for two things: living okay in a dystopian hellscape or aggregating wealth as part of an exit strategy.

mgh2 4y ago

It wasn't, until it was: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29903457 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29903457 Btw, some contrarian critics on her book, would love to hear from HN too: https://www.amazon.com/Work-Pray-Code-Becomes-Religion/dp/0691219087/ref=sr_1_1?crid=3A9F1SDM99SSH&keywords=Work+Pray+Code&qid=1654479500&sprefix=work+pray+code%2Caps%2C289&sr=8-1#customerReviews https://www.amazon.com/Work-Pray-Code-Becomes-Religion/dp/06...

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

strngeattractor 4y ago

Alcoholism is probably a better metaphor....an alcoholics penchant for work

bongoman37 4y ago

1sembiyan 4y ago

People have been discovering solace in work for a long time now; it can’t be just a Silicon Valley thing. Specifically I am thinking of some of the examples found in Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi’s works.

onetokeoverthe 4y ago

tsuujin 4y ago

I have worked for Bay Area companies which follow the Silicon Valley gospel a couple of times, and I have a fundamental disagreement with the idea that finding solace in work is inherently good. My experience with this culture is that it is more cult than religion. You are expected to live for the work, give your all for the work, and love the work above all things. If you value anything above work—for example, time with your children—then you are not worthy of the work. In fact, you have no worth at all. Your free time should be spent studying for the work. You should sleep at the office with your coworkers over the weekend in “voluntary” hackathons to make the work closer to completion. Most importantly, if you suggest that the work should maybe not be the only thing in your life, you are not worthy of the work and you should feel shame. If you don’t, your code family will help you to feel it. Obviously I had some bad experiences, but I know that I’m not alone. I wonder honestly if anyone interviewing Silicon Valley tech people would have a chance at an honest, healthy assessment of work/life balance. Finding value in what you do is fine, it’s healthy, it’s important; I just don’t think the Silicon Valley culture is one anyone should be emulating. It’s ok to go to work because it’s a means to an end.

bjornsing 4y ago
I’ve spent a lot of time in the opposite work culture: Sweden. It has its pros and cons, but to be honest I’d move to Silicon Valley in a heartbeat if it wasn’t for the bureaucracy involved. > It’s ok to go to work because it’s a means to an end. Sure, that should be okay. But if someone wants to spend their free time studying, should that not be allowed? Should they be passed up for promotion because of it? Should your “code family” help you feel shame for it? It’s not easy to strike a good balance between those who do seek self-realization in work and those who see it as a means to an end. Instead of having these two groups fight it out in every workplace I think society should provide opportunities for both. (But you can’t complain if those that prioritize work over everything else have more interesting and rewarding careers.)
- ZeroGravitas 4y ago
  If you make the same argument for people spending time in the office, you might see the problem. It's a race to the bottom. Sure that one guy with no friends or family has nowhere else to go, so he doesn't care, but if he gets rewarded for it, everyone else gets dragged in and we've decided that long hours aren't productive anyway, and certainly don't replace the time spent with friends and family. Taking risks is another, more extreme, example. What if someone has terminal cancer or just doesn't care if he lives? There's probably many jobs they can do faster since they're not trying particular hard to stay alive. It's maybe harder to see the problem when someone is super keen on their work, but I think we'd all be better off if they channelled that energy into something else of equal mental stimulation separate from their work.

alvperez82 4y ago

I suffered that for 8 years and my company was not a "Big Tech", thank you Lord for taking me out of that place!