4 ms·

The Goliath Wikipedia section “Goliath and the Greeks” adds color to this theory. If the Philistines had Greek cultural origins it explains why the David story

The Goliath Wikipedia section “Goliath and the Greeks” adds color to this theory. If the Philistines had Greek cultural origins it explains why the David story involved one on one combat (a motif in Greek myths). And a Greek etymology of the name Goliath explains its apparent non-Semitic origins.

hnmd 4y ago
If anyone is interested in this idea, Adam Nicolson spends a few entertaining pages covering the story of Goliath in his book Why Homer Matters. He makes an argument that the Goliath story is basically a satirical take on the battle scenes in the Iliad.
- dc-programmer 4y ago
  Your comment piqued my interest and I found this JBL (not sure what their reputation is) article making a case for a surprisingly amount of Biblical intertextuality with Homer. I was familiar with the influence of the Hellenistic culture in the area but had no idea that Homer could have had reach pre-Alexander. https://jbqnew.jewishbible.org/jbq-past-issues/2016/443-july-september-2016/literary-parallels-homers-epics-biblical-philistines/ https://jbqnew.jewishbible.org/jbq-past-issues/2016/443-july... I will have to buy Why Homer matters.
  - coliveira 4y ago
    It all depends on when you believe the old testament was written. Some people think it is later than traditionally thought (at least the final composition). This final composition may have happened after Alexander time, when greek culture was already well know over that area.
    - dc-programmer 4y ago
      That’s a good point, and actually was wondering about the timeline of events after I posted. A post Alexander authorship (or enhancements) makes more logical sense. I think the argument in favor of a more contemporaneous date would that the Hebrews would have to remember the Greek connection hundreds of years later, long after the Philistines became Canaanized. Also I think I remember Judges and Samuel (referenced in article) are among the oldest books in the Bible (don’t know Jewish name for these set of books).
kromem 4y ago
You can see the other side of the "sheepherder kills elite pre-Greek warrior" story in the Argonautica book 4 verse 1485-1500: > On pasturing flocks didst thou light; and there followed a shepherd who, in defence of his own sheep, while thou weft leading them off to thy comrades in their need, slew thee by the cast of a stone In this story it's in the desert of North Africa vs Palestine and isn't a dual. But either (a) sheepherders were killing elite pre-Greek warriors regularly with the cast of a stone, (b) one story influenced the other's existence while somehow having little to no other shared details or attribution, or (c) an event like that may have actually occurred and left a lasting impression on both sides, which over time morphed into their respective versions in each group identity, woven into broader events.
- dc-programmer 4y ago
  I’m hoping it’s (c) because that’s the most metal choice
- lurquer 4y ago
  If you think a shepherd fighting off rustlers was (is) a rare event, you know little about shepherds.
wumpus 4y ago
> If the Philistines had Greek cultural origins it explains why the David story involved one on one combat Don't many other unrelated cultures have one on one combat?
- dc-programmer 4y ago
  I’m not sure. I can’t think of other instances like this in the Bible off the top of my head though. The significance of its inclusion is to show that Saul was not chosen by God to lead Israel, but rather David. By Occam’s razor, this explains its inclusion not any adjacency to a Mycenaeanesque Greek civilization. It’s a cool theory though, and the circumstantial evidence is there. Which is why I shared
  - wumpus 4y ago
    Looks like there are several examples that don't have anything to do with the Middle East in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single_combat https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single_combat

hnmd 4y ago

If anyone is interested in this idea, Adam Nicolson spends a few entertaining pages covering the story of Goliath in his book Why Homer Matters. He makes an argument that the Goliath story is basically a satirical take on the battle scenes in the Iliad.

dc-programmer 4y ago
Your comment piqued my interest and I found this JBL (not sure what their reputation is) article making a case for a surprisingly amount of Biblical intertextuality with Homer. I was familiar with the influence of the Hellenistic culture in the area but had no idea that Homer could have had reach pre-Alexander. https://jbqnew.jewishbible.org/jbq-past-issues/2016/443-july-september-2016/literary-parallels-homers-epics-biblical-philistines/ https://jbqnew.jewishbible.org/jbq-past-issues/2016/443-july... I will have to buy Why Homer matters.
- coliveira 4y ago
  It all depends on when you believe the old testament was written. Some people think it is later than traditionally thought (at least the final composition). This final composition may have happened after Alexander time, when greek culture was already well know over that area.
  - dc-programmer 4y ago
    That’s a good point, and actually was wondering about the timeline of events after I posted. A post Alexander authorship (or enhancements) makes more logical sense. I think the argument in favor of a more contemporaneous date would that the Hebrews would have to remember the Greek connection hundreds of years later, long after the Philistines became Canaanized. Also I think I remember Judges and Samuel (referenced in article) are among the oldest books in the Bible (don’t know Jewish name for these set of books).

kromem 4y ago

You can see the other side of the "sheepherder kills elite pre-Greek warrior" story in the Argonautica book 4 verse 1485-1500: > On pasturing flocks didst thou light; and there followed a shepherd who, in defence of his own sheep, while thou weft leading them off to thy comrades in their need, slew thee by the cast of a stone In this story it's in the desert of North Africa vs Palestine and isn't a dual. But either (a) sheepherders were killing elite pre-Greek warriors regularly with the cast of a stone, (b) one story influenced the other's existence while somehow having little to no other shared details or attribution, or (c) an event like that may have actually occurred and left a lasting impression on both sides, which over time morphed into their respective versions in each group identity, woven into broader events.

dc-programmer 4y ago
I’m hoping it’s (c) because that’s the most metal choice
lurquer 4y ago
If you think a shepherd fighting off rustlers was (is) a rare event, you know little about shepherds.

wumpus 4y ago

> If the Philistines had Greek cultural origins it explains why the David story involved one on one combat Don't many other unrelated cultures have one on one combat?

dc-programmer 4y ago
I’m not sure. I can’t think of other instances like this in the Bible off the top of my head though. The significance of its inclusion is to show that Saul was not chosen by God to lead Israel, but rather David. By Occam’s razor, this explains its inclusion not any adjacency to a Mycenaeanesque Greek civilization. It’s a cool theory though, and the circumstantial evidence is there. Which is why I shared
- wumpus 4y ago
  Looks like there are several examples that don't have anything to do with the Middle East in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single_combat https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single_combat