4 ms·

Calling the effects of LSD placebo effects is not valid to begin with, which anyone who ever took LSD could confirm. It is also not Adderall or a stimulant, so

by Mo3 4y ago

Calling the effects of LSD placebo effects is not valid to begin with, which anyone who ever took LSD could confirm. It is also not Adderall or a stimulant, so there will be no extremely and immediately obvious changes in performance, etc. If we want to talk about placebo, we really need to define the original purpose. I've heard countless of reasons to microdose by now, most of them are hokum to begin with. I think I did a pretty good job at describing what microdosing is actually useful for: Speeding up the forming of new habits and thought patterns, which is really really difficult and simply taking a small dose of LSD with your morning coffee isn't going to do anything and not going to produce immediate favorable and persistent effects, unlike for example Adderall would, aside of gaining a little bit of a deeper understanding on subconscious processes during your daytime routine. If you're going to do it, it has to have a very, very clear purpose that also matches the effective profile of LSD, and even then the outcome is not guaranteed. A close friend of mine did not heed these warnings and now suffers from an, arguably, microdosing-induced panic disorder. Is this still a placebo? Possibly, but the effects of psychedelics are anything but a placebo, and their potential power is absolutely insane - but the utility, or harm potential, is directly correlated to what you do with it. Psychedelics are unlike any other substance class. The effects are not predictable like e.g. coffee is, they will send your deepest subconscious workings straight up into aware consciousness and you may not like what you see. Physical effects of LSD are well documented: More physical endurance, for example.

b3morales 4y ago
You seem to be misunderstanding what is meant by "placebo". The question is not whether there is an effect. It's whether the substance is sufficient cause for the effect. I.e. if your friend took sugar water that you told them had LSD, would they have the same panic disorder? And also not just the one friend of course, but repeated across many trials.
- Mo3 4y ago
  > It's whether the substance is sufficient cause for the effect. 100%. > I.e. if your friend took sugar water that you told them had LSD, would they have the same panic disorder? I see what you're saying. Extremely unlikely, because the effects of psychedelics are not caused by simple knowledge of ingestion. I know this, because I once got sold bad LSD, with close to zero active ingredient, yet I assumed it was a very strong dose, and there were no effects whatsoever. Generally, adding to this, the effects of psychedelics are so extremely strong and all-encompassing this is completely out of the question. Don't take my word for it, ask anyone with experience or read experience reports. > And also not just the one friend of course, but repeated across many trials. Sorry, I'm not an expert in this field, I'm a software engineer. Just wanted to share my subjective experiences.
  - robbiep 4y ago
    I think you still don’t really understand what is meant by placebo effect and are putting way too much stock in the power of low dose psychedelics. FYI I have microdosed and it felt great but I wasn’t trying to tease out an effect. I think there’s a decent chance that the lift I got was because I felt mischevious, like, i just took some fing acid this morning and here I am at work. Solid lift. If there is some effect, then a blinded study should show a response. It doesn’t come down to ‘magic’ that works only if you know you’re taking the actual thing and have the right set and setting. By your own example, a blinded study that was run without the important steps you mention should correspondingly show people with both positive and negative effects which would appear in results. If you don’t have these results, then you have a bunk field that is just pseudoscience. Now this study may or may not be of that good a quality, but it goes in the evidence pile. > Sorry, I'm not an expert in this field, I'm a software engineer. Just wanted to share my subjective experiences. It’s clear that you’re sharing your subjective experiences, but that is not at all how you presented it, you presented it as though the study is wrong because of your experience. The study could be wrong, but the study is (at least ostensibly) attempting to follow the scientific method. Your dogmatic defence of a technique you clearly believe in (and to be clear, I don’t want to invalidate the benefit you say you have received from it) does not in any way contribute positively to what the objective of science is - to get to the truth. The broader picture here is that if there are high quality studies that demonstrate that micro dosing has some minor, or even significant effects on subjective experience when appropriately blinded, then it is a field for further study and potential adoption into therapy or other areas in controlled situations. If it shows nothing, then it is like the whole field of pseudoscience where the labours and efforts of people and mis allocation of resources to something that provides no benefit (and, on a re-run of history may never be developed, as opposed to science, which would come out the same way)
    - Mo3 4y ago
      > but that is not at all how you presented it, you presented it as though the study is wrong because of your experience. Absolutely not. To be clear, I'm not arguing against this study. In fact I absolutely believe the results to be conclusive and am trying to offer a possible explanation based on my experiences. I very well understand what a placebo is (or, at least, sufficiently enough), maybe the misunderstanding of my intentions behind commenting made it seem like I didn't. With the knowledge that I am arguing for the study and not against it, maybe my comments will make sense in a different way now.
Scalestein 4y ago
I've also tried microdosing for a few weeks and generally agree with your take. However I still don't feel confident gauging how much placebo effect is part of it. Approaching microdosing as you mention (and as I did) - with a clear goal and very intentionally is the key. But I could never really tell if I made the choices I wanted (not eating a candy bar or something) because the LSD was affecting my thinking or because I had taken the time to set my intentions clearly for the day. Would doing the ritual of microdosing but not taking the LSD have the same effect? I'm not sure. I found the LSD acts as a symbol and a way to signify the day as meaningful and keep my intentions top of mind. Parsing out what part of "success" was attributable to the chemicals and what was attributable to the ritual is very difficult. But in the end, does it matter how it works if it helped change habits?
- Mo3 4y ago
  > However I still don't feel confident gauging how much placebo effect is part of it. Me neither. All I know is that the substance is extremely powerful, and beneficial if applied correctly. > But in the end, does it matter how it works if it helped change habits? :)

by Mo3 4y ago

b3morales 4y ago

You seem to be misunderstanding what is meant by "placebo". The question is not whether there is an effect. It's whether the substance is sufficient cause for the effect. I.e. if your friend took sugar water that you told them had LSD, would they have the same panic disorder? And also not just the one friend of course, but repeated across many trials.

Mo3 4y ago
> It's whether the substance is sufficient cause for the effect. 100%. > I.e. if your friend took sugar water that you told them had LSD, would they have the same panic disorder? I see what you're saying. Extremely unlikely, because the effects of psychedelics are not caused by simple knowledge of ingestion. I know this, because I once got sold bad LSD, with close to zero active ingredient, yet I assumed it was a very strong dose, and there were no effects whatsoever. Generally, adding to this, the effects of psychedelics are so extremely strong and all-encompassing this is completely out of the question. Don't take my word for it, ask anyone with experience or read experience reports. > And also not just the one friend of course, but repeated across many trials. Sorry, I'm not an expert in this field, I'm a software engineer. Just wanted to share my subjective experiences.
- robbiep 4y ago
  I think you still don’t really understand what is meant by placebo effect and are putting way too much stock in the power of low dose psychedelics. FYI I have microdosed and it felt great but I wasn’t trying to tease out an effect. I think there’s a decent chance that the lift I got was because I felt mischevious, like, i just took some fing acid this morning and here I am at work. Solid lift. If there is some effect, then a blinded study should show a response. It doesn’t come down to ‘magic’ that works only if you know you’re taking the actual thing and have the right set and setting. By your own example, a blinded study that was run without the important steps you mention should correspondingly show people with both positive and negative effects which would appear in results. If you don’t have these results, then you have a bunk field that is just pseudoscience. Now this study may or may not be of that good a quality, but it goes in the evidence pile. > Sorry, I'm not an expert in this field, I'm a software engineer. Just wanted to share my subjective experiences. It’s clear that you’re sharing your subjective experiences, but that is not at all how you presented it, you presented it as though the study is wrong because of your experience. The study could be wrong, but the study is (at least ostensibly) attempting to follow the scientific method. Your dogmatic defence of a technique you clearly believe in (and to be clear, I don’t want to invalidate the benefit you say you have received from it) does not in any way contribute positively to what the objective of science is - to get to the truth. The broader picture here is that if there are high quality studies that demonstrate that micro dosing has some minor, or even significant effects on subjective experience when appropriately blinded, then it is a field for further study and potential adoption into therapy or other areas in controlled situations. If it shows nothing, then it is like the whole field of pseudoscience where the labours and efforts of people and mis allocation of resources to something that provides no benefit (and, on a re-run of history may never be developed, as opposed to science, which would come out the same way)
  - Mo3 4y ago
    > but that is not at all how you presented it, you presented it as though the study is wrong because of your experience. Absolutely not. To be clear, I'm not arguing against this study. In fact I absolutely believe the results to be conclusive and am trying to offer a possible explanation based on my experiences. I very well understand what a placebo is (or, at least, sufficiently enough), maybe the misunderstanding of my intentions behind commenting made it seem like I didn't. With the knowledge that I am arguing for the study and not against it, maybe my comments will make sense in a different way now.

Scalestein 4y ago

I've also tried microdosing for a few weeks and generally agree with your take. However I still don't feel confident gauging how much placebo effect is part of it. Approaching microdosing as you mention (and as I did) - with a clear goal and very intentionally is the key. But I could never really tell if I made the choices I wanted (not eating a candy bar or something) because the LSD was affecting my thinking or because I had taken the time to set my intentions clearly for the day. Would doing the ritual of microdosing but not taking the LSD have the same effect? I'm not sure. I found the LSD acts as a symbol and a way to signify the day as meaningful and keep my intentions top of mind. Parsing out what part of "success" was attributable to the chemicals and what was attributable to the ritual is very difficult. But in the end, does it matter how it works if it helped change habits?

Mo3 4y ago
> However I still don't feel confident gauging how much placebo effect is part of it. Me neither. All I know is that the substance is extremely powerful, and beneficial if applied correctly. > But in the end, does it matter how it works if it helped change habits? :)