4 ms·

This take seems off to me specifically in you last paragraph. Whether it is MTX in the form of cosmetics or p2w mechanics both are predatory to people with addi

by lcw 4y ago

This take seems off to me specifically in you last paragraph. Whether it is MTX in the form of cosmetics or p2w mechanics both are predatory to people with addictions to games and kids. I feel like people are upset about p2w mechanics in the game but at the same time say "I'm fine with cosmetic mtx" which makes the whole argument read to me as you are upset that people want to use money to win and that means they shouldn't so you will virtue signal like I care about people spending $10k. If you as an individual don't like p2w that's fine. I get that, but let's stop acting like we care about the virtues of it when kids are spending $1k on worthless Marvel skins in Fortnite or Roblox and there is little uproar about it... We just don't like going into a game where a rich person can beat us, which is understandably frustrating. The other virtue outrageous is just disingenuous imho.

badkitty 4y ago
pdimitar 4y ago
Your take is even more off since you didn't see the blindingly obvious difference: having a choice in your game progression. - Cosmetics are a choice. They don't affect your progress in any way. - Bought character power is not a choice. You can happily play X amount of hours but at one point you'll hit a brick wall you can't overcome without money. And no don't tell me that "eventually you will", because elementary psychology says people get discouraged and quit if their effort isn't rewarded until a certain time threshold. That time is much less than what a F2P will allow you. I don't know if you deliberately missed the point or you can't see something that's easy to notice.
- lcw 4y ago
  What point are you making? I'm making a point that you can spend $100k on cosmetics in Roblox or Fortnite, and people do spend thousands of dollars over time almost unknowingly. I assume you would think this is bad right? If manipulative psychology is the issue at hand than quantitatively speaking if you spend 10k on cosmetics or 10k on p2w through manipulative psychology what is the ethical difference? If you think I'm arguing for a side you are mistaken. I just don't think people actually care about people who are victims of this. They just don't like p2w games, and that's fine. I'm just calling a spade a spade. Also I feel like you are going down a rabbit hole of being gated on a game from being top 10 on a leaderboard, because the story mode and making it to level 60 seem completely accessible with no money. This is kind of a crazy path to walk down especially for PC gamers, who seem to be the most outraged, where affluence is definitely an advantage even if the game isn't the one making the money off it. For instance, the difference between a refresh rate of 250hz vs 60hz on a competitive FPS game. Try and tell me there isn't an advantage between a $800 gaming rig vs a $10k gaming rig...
  - pdimitar 4y ago
    > I assume you would think this is bad right? Of course I agree with that. I was under the impression that we're not discussing whether addiction is bad -- it's widely known that it is. I was arguing that "Minecraft and Roblox and millions of other games feed off the weak minds of virtual cosmetic addicts" does not at all make the pay-to-win model of other games okay. Because it did seem like you went off on a whataboutism road. That the world is screwed up doesn't mean we have to give up. We can try and improve little corners of it.
    - lcw 4y ago
      Yeah I feel you. I don't think I was whataboutism-ing. The parent comment said PoE is fine because it's just cosmetics in game that you can buy. I guess I should have said you could spend thousands of dollars on PoE on cosmetics, but I'm just stating that one isn't better than the other. The main topic to me is that people are saying they don't like p2w games, and it feels like a weak argument if you say you don't like manipulative psychology in MTX but you actually are fine with it in regard to cosmetics because it doesn't impact your experience. I just get this vibe that people don't think through their stance these days. They just want what they want, and use ethics to support their point when they don't really have a consistent sense of morality to speak of.
      - pdimitar 4y ago
        MTX are not inherently evil, for example I fully support one-time unlocks with MTX. It's a fair business model. (Although in these cases they might not be called MTX at all; probably "expansions" or "DLCs".) And the thing with cosmetics is that they're opt-in; whoever decides to never buy will also never be negatively affected -- which is not true for pay-to-win. I guess that's why there's this "evilest, eviler, evil and less evil" scale of game MTX. I personally would prefer all cosmetics be farmable but I'm okay with having those be also available for buying.
        jamespo 4y ago
        You might not be negatively affected by not having cosmetics but evidently lots of players are.

by lcw 4y ago

badkitty 4y ago

pdimitar 4y ago

Your take is even more off since you didn't see the blindingly obvious difference: having a choice in your game progression. - Cosmetics are a choice. They don't affect your progress in any way. - Bought character power is not a choice. You can happily play X amount of hours but at one point you'll hit a brick wall you can't overcome without money. And no don't tell me that "eventually you will", because elementary psychology says people get discouraged and quit if their effort isn't rewarded until a certain time threshold. That time is much less than what a F2P will allow you. I don't know if you deliberately missed the point or you can't see something that's easy to notice.

lcw 4y ago
What point are you making? I'm making a point that you can spend $100k on cosmetics in Roblox or Fortnite, and people do spend thousands of dollars over time almost unknowingly. I assume you would think this is bad right? If manipulative psychology is the issue at hand than quantitatively speaking if you spend 10k on cosmetics or 10k on p2w through manipulative psychology what is the ethical difference? If you think I'm arguing for a side you are mistaken. I just don't think people actually care about people who are victims of this. They just don't like p2w games, and that's fine. I'm just calling a spade a spade. Also I feel like you are going down a rabbit hole of being gated on a game from being top 10 on a leaderboard, because the story mode and making it to level 60 seem completely accessible with no money. This is kind of a crazy path to walk down especially for PC gamers, who seem to be the most outraged, where affluence is definitely an advantage even if the game isn't the one making the money off it. For instance, the difference between a refresh rate of 250hz vs 60hz on a competitive FPS game. Try and tell me there isn't an advantage between a $800 gaming rig vs a $10k gaming rig...
- pdimitar 4y ago
  > I assume you would think this is bad right? Of course I agree with that. I was under the impression that we're not discussing whether addiction is bad -- it's widely known that it is. I was arguing that "Minecraft and Roblox and millions of other games feed off the weak minds of virtual cosmetic addicts" does not at all make the pay-to-win model of other games okay. Because it did seem like you went off on a whataboutism road. That the world is screwed up doesn't mean we have to give up. We can try and improve little corners of it.
  - lcw 4y ago
    Yeah I feel you. I don't think I was whataboutism-ing. The parent comment said PoE is fine because it's just cosmetics in game that you can buy. I guess I should have said you could spend thousands of dollars on PoE on cosmetics, but I'm just stating that one isn't better than the other. The main topic to me is that people are saying they don't like p2w games, and it feels like a weak argument if you say you don't like manipulative psychology in MTX but you actually are fine with it in regard to cosmetics because it doesn't impact your experience. I just get this vibe that people don't think through their stance these days. They just want what they want, and use ethics to support their point when they don't really have a consistent sense of morality to speak of.
    - pdimitar 4y ago
      MTX are not inherently evil, for example I fully support one-time unlocks with MTX. It's a fair business model. (Although in these cases they might not be called MTX at all; probably "expansions" or "DLCs".) And the thing with cosmetics is that they're opt-in; whoever decides to never buy will also never be negatively affected -- which is not true for pay-to-win. I guess that's why there's this "evilest, eviler, evil and less evil" scale of game MTX. I personally would prefer all cosmetics be farmable but I'm okay with having those be also available for buying.
      - jamespo 4y ago
        You might not be negatively affected by not having cosmetics but evidently lots of players are.