4 ms·

"I'd like to become an electrician, but don't want to fork out the money to buy wire cutters or something similar." Yes, the analogy falls apart because you do

by delinka 15y ago

"I'd like to become an electrician, but don't want to fork out the money to buy wire cutters or something similar." Yes, the analogy falls apart because you don't run proprietary software on wire-cutters. I understand that you might want to "try before you buy" with Mac and iOS dev, but I'm speaking to a slightly different issue. If you want to do a job, you either acquire the tools to do the job (wire cutters/a Mac) or you Work Harder rather than Working Smarter (bend the wire until it breaks/shoehorn OS X onto a Hackintosh.)

theBobMcCormick 15y ago
Wire cutters cost a couple bucks. A decent Mac you could use for development is a bit more expensive.
- delinka 15y ago
  The cost is not relevant to my point. If you want to start a courier service in a fairly large area, motorized vehicles are a bit more expensive than a Mac. Can't afford the tools? Find another line of work.
  - Wilya 15y ago
    I don't see how the fact that I don't want to pay for a specific set of tools (a mac machine) prevents me from being interested in alternative tools.
    - delinka 15y ago
      In the case of iOS development, alternative tools have their own cost: effort to set up and maintain. Akin to how most operating systems besides Windows take additional effort to set up on that new Dell. If you can afford this extra effort (i.e. have the patience to work through the quirks), then you're welcome to it. Complaining about needing to obtain a Mac to gain the convenience of Apple's development environment is pointless.
      - Wilya 15y ago
        Oh, I agree on that. My point is that it's my own decision to choose what works best for me. I was more reacting on your "find another line of work".
  - The_Fox 15y ago
    The cost certainly is relevant. You can lease or rent a cube van. You can't rent $10 tools.
    - delinka 15y ago
      One can also lease computers. Including Macs.
      - robterrell 15y ago
        http://store.apple.com/us_smb_78313/browse/home/shop_mac/family/mac_mini/select http://store.apple.com/us_smb_78313/browse/home/shop_mac/fam... The price of leasing a Mac Mini from Apple is $25 per month ($34 with more RAM, but that would be silly to pay for). Much cheaper than the model of renting a virtual machine, plus works with your local devices. The only problem is, Apple Business leasing has a minimum order. Of course, if you can't stand Objective-C and want to stop, the virtual machine gives you a simpler path to quitting.
  - krschultz 15y ago
    It's the artificial limitation that drives everyone crazy. It's the difference between having to buy a van to start a courier service, and having to buy a BMW because someone says you have to. I understand the necessity of having to own a van to run my business, but why do I have to pay extra for one that has no extra capability? I did mobile dev for a living. Cross compiling across architectures and OSes is part and parcel to the beast. The fact that Apple won't let you is an artificial restriction.
- untog 15y ago
  Replying to delinka here because I can't reply directly: It's very sad that there should be any kind of pay wall behind tinkering with your mobile phone. I get that if you intend on making an app that's going to earn you millions then buying a Mac is small change. But what if you're just starting out, and are curious about how to go about making iOS apps? It's a real disappointment that anyone would think attaching a $1,000 price tag to programming is a good thing.
nandemo 15y ago
That analogy is utter nonsense. With a Linux or Windows desktop equipped with a good toolbox we can cross-compile to a wide range of architectures. That this range doesn't currently include the iPhone is completely accidental; it's merely a consequence of a business decision by Apple (and it might even be a good business decision for all I know). It doesn't tell us anything about the adequacy of a Linux/Windows desktop as a tool.
- ay 15y ago
  I think there is a difference between "effectiveness of the tool in general" vs. "effectiveness of a tool for the particular purpose". Pliers are a fantastic tool. You can even put the screws in with it. But it is a very poor tool for putting in the nails. Arguably it is merely a consequence of a business decision to have nails the way they are. For that you need a hammer. Therefore I believe the parent analogy makes perfect sense. If you wanna write iPhone apps, get the tool that does the job. At this point in time this is a Mac. Linux/Windows is a fantastic tool, but for making iPhone apps it is rather useless.
  - nandemo 15y ago
    I don't get your point. OK, a Linux desktop is normally useless to make iPhone apps. But this thread is about a tool that allows you to you use your Linux desktop to make iPhone apps. I was disagreeing with a comment implying that somehow you must have a physical Mac to make iPhone apps.
    - ay 15y ago
      My point was: "can" != "should". At least not in case of serious development. For myself - I'd probably consider using this to tinker with XCode and see if maybe I should get myself a Mac if I get into iP(hone|ad) app development beyond trying to compile "Hello world". Anyway, having Linux as my only OS for circa 8 last years (minus some powerpoint operating system use due to practical constraints @work), I would be curious if you have any experience developing for iPhone/iPad on Linux/Windows that you can share.
- 15y ago
danparsonson 15y ago
Actually, it's more like being an electrician and wanting to work on a particular job, but having to buy a very specific, very expensive tool just for that job. I'd like to dabble in iOS development but I've already paid a decent amount of money to buy a machine that does any other programming work I need, so I don't want to spend another £1000 - £1500 just to experiment, and I wouldn't use the Mac for anything else. It's very common to hire tools, particularly expensive ones that you don't use very much.

by delinka 15y ago

theBobMcCormick 15y ago

Wire cutters cost a couple bucks. A decent Mac you could use for development is a bit more expensive.

delinka 15y ago
The cost is not relevant to my point. If you want to start a courier service in a fairly large area, motorized vehicles are a bit more expensive than a Mac. Can't afford the tools? Find another line of work.
- Wilya 15y ago
  I don't see how the fact that I don't want to pay for a specific set of tools (a mac machine) prevents me from being interested in alternative tools.
  - delinka 15y ago
    In the case of iOS development, alternative tools have their own cost: effort to set up and maintain. Akin to how most operating systems besides Windows take additional effort to set up on that new Dell. If you can afford this extra effort (i.e. have the patience to work through the quirks), then you're welcome to it. Complaining about needing to obtain a Mac to gain the convenience of Apple's development environment is pointless.
    - Wilya 15y ago
      Oh, I agree on that. My point is that it's my own decision to choose what works best for me. I was more reacting on your "find another line of work".
- The_Fox 15y ago
  The cost certainly is relevant. You can lease or rent a cube van. You can't rent $10 tools.
  - delinka 15y ago
    One can also lease computers. Including Macs.
    - robterrell 15y ago
      http://store.apple.com/us_smb_78313/browse/home/shop_mac/family/mac_mini/select http://store.apple.com/us_smb_78313/browse/home/shop_mac/fam... The price of leasing a Mac Mini from Apple is $25 per month ($34 with more RAM, but that would be silly to pay for). Much cheaper than the model of renting a virtual machine, plus works with your local devices. The only problem is, Apple Business leasing has a minimum order. Of course, if you can't stand Objective-C and want to stop, the virtual machine gives you a simpler path to quitting.
- krschultz 15y ago
  It's the artificial limitation that drives everyone crazy. It's the difference between having to buy a van to start a courier service, and having to buy a BMW because someone says you have to. I understand the necessity of having to own a van to run my business, but why do I have to pay extra for one that has no extra capability? I did mobile dev for a living. Cross compiling across architectures and OSes is part and parcel to the beast. The fact that Apple won't let you is an artificial restriction.
untog 15y ago
Replying to delinka here because I can't reply directly: It's very sad that there should be any kind of pay wall behind tinkering with your mobile phone. I get that if you intend on making an app that's going to earn you millions then buying a Mac is small change. But what if you're just starting out, and are curious about how to go about making iOS apps? It's a real disappointment that anyone would think attaching a $1,000 price tag to programming is a good thing.

nandemo 15y ago

That analogy is utter nonsense. With a Linux or Windows desktop equipped with a good toolbox we can cross-compile to a wide range of architectures. That this range doesn't currently include the iPhone is completely accidental; it's merely a consequence of a business decision by Apple (and it might even be a good business decision for all I know). It doesn't tell us anything about the adequacy of a Linux/Windows desktop as a tool.

ay 15y ago
I think there is a difference between "effectiveness of the tool in general" vs. "effectiveness of a tool for the particular purpose". Pliers are a fantastic tool. You can even put the screws in with it. But it is a very poor tool for putting in the nails. Arguably it is merely a consequence of a business decision to have nails the way they are. For that you need a hammer. Therefore I believe the parent analogy makes perfect sense. If you wanna write iPhone apps, get the tool that does the job. At this point in time this is a Mac. Linux/Windows is a fantastic tool, but for making iPhone apps it is rather useless.
- nandemo 15y ago
  I don't get your point. OK, a Linux desktop is normally useless to make iPhone apps. But this thread is about a tool that allows you to you use your Linux desktop to make iPhone apps. I was disagreeing with a comment implying that somehow you must have a physical Mac to make iPhone apps.
  - ay 15y ago
    My point was: "can" != "should". At least not in case of serious development. For myself - I'd probably consider using this to tinker with XCode and see if maybe I should get myself a Mac if I get into iP(hone|ad) app development beyond trying to compile "Hello world". Anyway, having Linux as my only OS for circa 8 last years (minus some powerpoint operating system use due to practical constraints @work), I would be curious if you have any experience developing for iPhone/iPad on Linux/Windows that you can share.
15y ago

danparsonson 15y ago

Actually, it's more like being an electrician and wanting to work on a particular job, but having to buy a very specific, very expensive tool just for that job. I'd like to dabble in iOS development but I've already paid a decent amount of money to buy a machine that does any other programming work I need, so I don't want to spend another £1000 - £1500 just to experiment, and I wouldn't use the Mac for anything else. It's very common to hire tools, particularly expensive ones that you don't use very much.