4 ms·
"They absolutely are effective at reducing the risk of death or serious illness" Actually, possibly not :( This breaks down into two separate questions: 1. Ar
by native_samples 4y ago
"They absolutely are effective at reducing the risk of death or serious illness"
Actually, possibly not :( This breaks down into two separate questions:
1. Are they effective at reducing risk of death / serious illness now.
2. Were they so in the past?
To answer these we can't rely on any scientific gold standards despite the importance of the questions, because the trials showed no impact on death or actually the Pfizer trial had more deaths in the vaccine group than the control group (due to extra heart attacks). This was written off as "not statistically significant" (this isn't the right way to use statistical significance as a concept). Then they vaccinated the control group, thus ending the RCT phase of data collection.
The problem was that despite the constant messaging, COVID is virtually never deadly outside of the very elderly or sick, and those people tend not to join drug trials. Thus despite having ~65,000-ish participants there were not enough COVID deaths to detect any impact on this metric. Hospitalization meanwhile and "severe illness" were likewise not trial endpoints. So only noisy observational data is available.
For (1) the data from countries that actually release the raw data shows very mixed results indeed, with deaths being higher amongst the vaccinated cohort for some dosing ranges and age groups, lower for others, and overall there is no clear message from the data that vaccines are reducing deaths.
https://bartram.substack.com/p/update-on-the-failure-of-the-vaccines?s=r https://bartram.substack.com/p/update-on-the-failure-of-the-...
"It appears that things have got somewhat worse since last week’s report, with the hospitalisation and death rates in the double vaccinated (not boosted) exceeding that seen in the unvaccinated for all aged over 70, and with a higher death rate in those aged over 60 as well. What’s more, there now appears to be practically no benefit of vaccination with two doses of vaccine for those aged under 60, in terms of the remaining protection against hospitalisation and death."
That's for the UK but similar numbers can be found elsewhere in the rare cases where governments actually release the actual data (normally, they hide the actual numbers). Also, what we actually care about is overall mortality because vaccines can and do kill people, and just changing the cause of death isn't very useful. There too the news is disappointing, with small increases in excess death being correlated with booster rollouts but not the winter Omicron wave:
https://bartram.substack.com/p/increased-deaths-in-england-for-the?s=r https://bartram.substack.com/p/increased-deaths-in-england-f...
All this is official UK government data so enough reason to at minimum reserve judgement. Data in the past is unfortunately heavily corrupted by mis-allocation of people to the different status buckets. The methodology they use would calculate a big but transient impact on death and sickness from an injection of water.
- mdp2021 4y ago> virtually never deadly outside of the very elderly or sick No, I grant you. Some of us have seen it. Although, there is a complication (in the anecdotals I can provide, that suffice to falsify a proposed rule) in determining whether bad treatments may have been the killers.
- native_samples 4y ago"Virtually never" is not falsifiable by anecdote. The statistics on this are clear.
- mdp2021 4y agoHow do you define that «virtually»? If it is "never (justifiable exceptions aside)", then yes, it is falsifiable by anecdote. '∀x: P(x)' is falsified by '∃x: ¬P(x)'. It's just Popper. I am just telling you it was very possible to die with it middle aged and in good health with the original 2020 variant. Surely you can guess how I know. With the new ones, I do not know, I have no experience. If that «virtually» means "following some statistics", than those statistics must be judged as quite blurry by our experience: they conceal what we have seen.
- native_samples 4y agoI'm sorry to hear that you know people who died of COVID. I don't think anyone I've ever met later died of COVID, and that's true of most of my friends too, as far as I know. It's just very rare, which is why they couldn't get enough deaths in the (large) COVID vaccine trials to meet any threshold for significance. As for "virtually never", why would you think "never with exceptions" is the definition? "Virtually never" here just means "it happens very rarely relative to the total number of COVID deaths". Isn't that normal use of English? We're not communicating in SAT here. I agree that the statistics are blurry, but they're mostly blurred in the direction of exaggerating the risks. I'll take your word for it that your acquaintance did indeed die of COVID, but it must be remembered that such classifications were being handed very liberally, especially in the USA where COVID death classifications were being directly incentivized with money.