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The one thing that I don't see mentioned on Modvion's page is the glue/resin that's used to laminate the timber. Resins are usually made from hydrocarbon feedst
by camtarn 4y ago
The one thing that I don't see mentioned on Modvion's page is the glue/resin that's used to laminate the timber. Resins are usually made from hydrocarbon feedstock, as far as I can tell, and that must take a bunch of energy - although presumably not as much as smelting steel? I'm guessing that is built into the calculation of 'The corresponding tower in wood emits 90% less emissions [than steel]'.
I've wondered before if the reason the resin is never mentioned in these sort of laminated/engineered timber projects is that 'we built this structure entirely from wood!' sounds a lot better than 'we built this structure mostly using wood, but also using hydrocarbons'.
- credit_guy 4y agoWhat's wrong with hydrocarbons?
- carapace 4y agoNothing, if they're made from organic sources, if they're made from fossil fuels they're part of the problem. The carbon in organic hydrocarbons comes almost entirely from the atmosphere, rather than being pulled up from underground.
- credit_guy 4y ago> The carbon in organic hydrocarbons comes almost entirely from the atmosphere, rather than being pulled up from underground. Why does that matter? It is trapped carbon, it doesn't contribute to CO2 emissions.
- ZeroGravitas 4y agoIf it provides money to the people digging up fossil fuels then it contributes to CO2 emissions.
- carapace 4y agoI think credit_guy's right, if the carbon isn't going into the air it's not causing the Greenhouse Effect, eh? Petroleum is way too useful to stop using, even if we completely phase it out as an energy source. E.g. plastics, lots of pharmaceuticals, etc., there are too many useful products made from petrol.
- ZeroGravitas 4y agoProbably not cost effective once you remove the massive subsidies and scale of fossil burning uses. There's alternatives and the sooner we start making them at scale the sooner they'll be cheaper and better than the fossil equivalent, just like renewables and EVs and heat pumps etc. Note that fossil extraction also has a climate impact, methane leaks etc. even when not burned, though the bribes going to politicians are probably the bigger threat.
- carapace 4y agoI agree with all of that, but it's still the case that carbon in glue isn't in the sky, eh? I don't think we should rule out a role for fossil hydrocarbons as part of the transition to a totally renewable/regenerative (aka "circular") economy.
- ZeroGravitas 4y agoI think we should. They're expensive when you account for all the costs. That's why we're phasing them out, even for things they're pretty good for.
- carapace 4y agoAh, derp, sorry! You're right, of course. (Eventually the towers would reach end-of-life but I would hope we have sorted things out climate-wise by then, eh?) I could imagine that wood+"fossil glue" could be better for the climate than steel or fiberglass (or whatever.)
- ZeroGravitas 4y agoLignin is the future of this: https://cordis.europa.eu/project/id/101022987 https://cordis.europa.eu/project/id/101022987
- camtarn 4y agoOoh, that's awesome! Thanks for the link.
- dsadsadsaddsa 4y ago>that must take a bunch of energy - although presumably not as much as smelting steel? You'd be surprised. Steel is 20MJ/kg[1], epoxy resin is 80MJ/kg[2]. FWIW, aluminium is 150MJ/kg. [1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embodied_energy#In_common_materials https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embodied_energy#In_common_mate... [2] https://compositesuk.co.uk/composite-materials/faqs/embodied-energy https://compositesuk.co.uk/composite-materials/faqs/embodied...