4 ms·

To go to nigeria I had to have a yellow fever vaccine, I don’t see the difference. Plenty of countries require covid vaccination to enter, that’s an operationa

To go to nigeria I had to have a yellow fever vaccine, I don’t see the difference. Plenty of countries require covid vaccination to enter, that’s an operational problem for an airline deploying staff.

sokoloff 4y ago
A sovereign nation deciding on the requirements to cross the border into its territory feels different to me than the power of an employer to set health-related mandates. I’m much more willing to accept that a sovereign nation has the right to enforce border policies than an employer has the right to police the healthcare decisions of its employees.
- midasuni 4y ago
  An airline pilot who is unable to work because they refuse to have the required vaccines is of no use to their employer.
  - xeromal 4y ago
    Unless they're part of a union which is a problem for their employer.
  - Beltalowda 4y ago
    It's not that they're "unable to work", it's just that they can't work on some flights, which makes the scheduling a bit harder for KLM since not every employee can work on every flight.
- sofixa 4y ago
  > an employer to set health-related mandates It's funny you say that within the context of an airline. Where pilot and air staff's health is under extreme scrutiny because they need to be in good condition, otherwise people could die when things go south. They probably enforce vaccines for yellow fever and similar for pilots flying to countries impacted to those diseases, why is it any different for COVID-19?
  - sokoloff 4y ago
    KLM: “We will track that you have a valid 1st class medical as is required for airline transport operations.” VNV and everyone: “No problem!” KLM: “You also need this extra healthcare requirement that KLM is imposing.” VNV: “No. We’ll see you in court.” Airlines ensuring their flight crews are complying with federal laws and ICAO standards is great. Airlines setting their own medical standards differently is what I (and the pilots’ union) think is improper.
    - sofixa 4y ago
      > Airlines ensuring their flight crews are complying with federal laws I think you're mistaking the country, KLM is a Dutch airline, and the Netherlands is not a federation. They're under EASA and ICAO regulations, on top of Dutch and (every country they operate in) regulations. > Airlines setting their own medical standards differently is what I (and the pilots’ union) think is improper. It's up to them to set those medical standards if they think they're needed. They probably have mental health standards too, considering the worst air disaster in terms of death toll was caused by a pilot of theirs forgetting he's not in a simulator with bad visibility and crashing his 747 into another 747. As has already been said, many countries require Covid vaccination for entry, including in the EU. Why would an airline not require their air staff to be vaccinated?
      - sokoloff 4y ago
        > It's up to them to set those medical standards if they think they're needed. The court disagreed in the case we’re discussing.
kybernetyk 4y ago
The yellow fever vaccine works though. The covid vaccines are all somewhere on the level of very ineffective down to snake-oil. Yellow fever also is actually a serious disease while covid is for the absolute huge majority nothing more than a cold.
- Lordarminius 4y ago
- sofixa 4y ago
  Very ineffective at what? Stopping transmission, yes. Preventing heavy cases requiring hospitalisation ? I thought the studies and statistics were pretty much unanimous that the vaccines greatly help at that. Has there been anything new I've missed?
  - solarhoma 4y ago
    I have not followed the vaccine efficacy as closely as I should. But for the past two years masks have been ‘known’ to reduce transmission rates. Data has finally been released showing that these cloth masks do not help reducing transmission rates.
- mdp2021 4y ago
  > nothing more than a cold Are you sure? Available numbers have varied. Are you sure that it is not just a superficial appearance, and that damage could be revealed by a low-level assessment? Some people do not drink or smoke, you know - they want to be optimal, not "it's just a scratch". Those people who judge the potential damages from covid as negligile but for limited cases would have little reason for reclutance towards vaccination, which would gain the advantage of further reducing those chances.
xkbarkar 4y ago
thedifference 4y ago
- slavak 4y ago
  Both the Pfizer-BioNTech (Comirnaty) and Moderna (Spikevax) COVID vaccines are fully FDA approved for a while now.
  - phpisthebest 4y ago
    My understanding they are still being distributed under their EUA, not under their Approved Name, and Branding This is a very large legal difference, as under the EUA they have been exempted for any and ALL liability
    - sokoloff 4y ago
      Moderna and Pfizer’s vaccines now have full FDA approval. https://www.fda.gov/news-events/press-announcements/coronavirus-covid-19-update-fda-takes-key-action-approving-second-covid-19-vaccine https://www.fda.gov/news-events/press-announcements/coronavi...
      - phpisthebest 4y ago
        FDA approval or not was not the statement I made. Even in your link it expressly says they are still being distributed under the EUA not under normal law
- hoffs 4y ago
  > Experimental
contravariant 4y ago
Sure, but given that "KLM has not been able to demonstrate that there is an operational necessity" it seems fair to me that the court has decided the KLM cannot mandate vaccination.

sokoloff 4y ago

A sovereign nation deciding on the requirements to cross the border into its territory feels different to me than the power of an employer to set health-related mandates. I’m much more willing to accept that a sovereign nation has the right to enforce border policies than an employer has the right to police the healthcare decisions of its employees.

midasuni 4y ago
An airline pilot who is unable to work because they refuse to have the required vaccines is of no use to their employer.
- xeromal 4y ago
  Unless they're part of a union which is a problem for their employer.
- Beltalowda 4y ago
  It's not that they're "unable to work", it's just that they can't work on some flights, which makes the scheduling a bit harder for KLM since not every employee can work on every flight.
sofixa 4y ago
> an employer to set health-related mandates It's funny you say that within the context of an airline. Where pilot and air staff's health is under extreme scrutiny because they need to be in good condition, otherwise people could die when things go south. They probably enforce vaccines for yellow fever and similar for pilots flying to countries impacted to those diseases, why is it any different for COVID-19?
- sokoloff 4y ago
  KLM: “We will track that you have a valid 1st class medical as is required for airline transport operations.” VNV and everyone: “No problem!” KLM: “You also need this extra healthcare requirement that KLM is imposing.” VNV: “No. We’ll see you in court.” Airlines ensuring their flight crews are complying with federal laws and ICAO standards is great. Airlines setting their own medical standards differently is what I (and the pilots’ union) think is improper.
  - sofixa 4y ago
    > Airlines ensuring their flight crews are complying with federal laws I think you're mistaking the country, KLM is a Dutch airline, and the Netherlands is not a federation. They're under EASA and ICAO regulations, on top of Dutch and (every country they operate in) regulations. > Airlines setting their own medical standards differently is what I (and the pilots’ union) think is improper. It's up to them to set those medical standards if they think they're needed. They probably have mental health standards too, considering the worst air disaster in terms of death toll was caused by a pilot of theirs forgetting he's not in a simulator with bad visibility and crashing his 747 into another 747. As has already been said, many countries require Covid vaccination for entry, including in the EU. Why would an airline not require their air staff to be vaccinated?
    - sokoloff 4y ago
      > It's up to them to set those medical standards if they think they're needed. The court disagreed in the case we’re discussing.

kybernetyk 4y ago

The yellow fever vaccine works though. The covid vaccines are all somewhere on the level of very ineffective down to snake-oil. Yellow fever also is actually a serious disease while covid is for the absolute huge majority nothing more than a cold.

Lordarminius 4y ago
sofixa 4y ago
Very ineffective at what? Stopping transmission, yes. Preventing heavy cases requiring hospitalisation ? I thought the studies and statistics were pretty much unanimous that the vaccines greatly help at that. Has there been anything new I've missed?
- solarhoma 4y ago
  I have not followed the vaccine efficacy as closely as I should. But for the past two years masks have been ‘known’ to reduce transmission rates. Data has finally been released showing that these cloth masks do not help reducing transmission rates.
mdp2021 4y ago
> nothing more than a cold Are you sure? Available numbers have varied. Are you sure that it is not just a superficial appearance, and that damage could be revealed by a low-level assessment? Some people do not drink or smoke, you know - they want to be optimal, not "it's just a scratch". Those people who judge the potential damages from covid as negligile but for limited cases would have little reason for reclutance towards vaccination, which would gain the advantage of further reducing those chances.

xkbarkar 4y ago

thedifference 4y ago

slavak 4y ago
Both the Pfizer-BioNTech (Comirnaty) and Moderna (Spikevax) COVID vaccines are fully FDA approved for a while now.
- phpisthebest 4y ago
  My understanding they are still being distributed under their EUA, not under their Approved Name, and Branding This is a very large legal difference, as under the EUA they have been exempted for any and ALL liability
  - sokoloff 4y ago
    Moderna and Pfizer’s vaccines now have full FDA approval. https://www.fda.gov/news-events/press-announcements/coronavirus-covid-19-update-fda-takes-key-action-approving-second-covid-19-vaccine https://www.fda.gov/news-events/press-announcements/coronavi...
    - phpisthebest 4y ago
      FDA approval or not was not the statement I made. Even in your link it expressly says they are still being distributed under the EUA not under normal law
hoffs 4y ago
> Experimental

contravariant 4y ago

Sure, but given that "KLM has not been able to demonstrate that there is an operational necessity" it seems fair to me that the court has decided the KLM cannot mandate vaccination.