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Good question. Maybe you should ask the Ukrainians why they didn't surrender on day 3. In fact, why didn't they welcome Russia as liberators? Did the Evil West

Good question. Maybe you should ask the Ukrainians why they didn't surrender on day 3. In fact, why didn't they welcome Russia as liberators? Did the Evil West whisper in their collective ears, like Rasputin, casting a spell on them to become our puppets? Or... could it simply be that Ukrainians hate the Russian invader as passionately as Russians still hate the Nazis today? Passionately and rightly, for invading their country and slaughtering millions of their people? Putin, the delusional fool, has no idea the depth his evil imprint has forever laid upon Ukrainian-Russian relations. He thought that shared history, religion, etc. would excuse the oceans of blood, an entire nation's livelihood disrupted and destroyed. He thought he could brutalize Europeans into submission. He was wrong, and now there is no turning back.

thriftwy 4y ago
Can it simply be that eventually Ukrainians understand that the deal was always like I have described it in the previous post? Ukraine is very diverse country. It still considers citizens of Crimea and LDNR of its own, but I'm pretty sure these are now hating Ukraine passionately. Especially after many, many acts of Ukraine bombing Donetsk in absense of any sensible military goal. If the boys and girls from Kievan twitter hate Russia with passion, that is survivable.
- civilized 4y ago
  > Can it simply be that eventually Ukrainians understand that the deal was always like I have described it in the previous post? That still leaves my same question. If their understanding is the same as yours, why did they not surrender on day 3 as you said they should? Could it be that Putin has activated their national identity by threatening them into collective self-defense? And now that they have held their own despite being brutalized, do you think they will forget their achievements and hand over their lives to their attackers? Perhaps they have gained more self-respect than that. Perhaps they see themselves as more than just collateral damage in some great power struggle. > Ukraine is very diverse country. It still considers citizens of Crimea and LDNR of its own, but I'm pretty sure these are now hating Ukraine passionately. Especially after many, many acts of Ukraine bombing Donetsk in absense of any sensible military goal. Unfortunately there is no one to tell us what Donbas Ukrainians think, free of propaganda. But it will become clear soon enough. For now all I have is this poll [1], conducted in January, which says a plurality of Donbas residents prefer to be part of Ukraine. I can't imagine that sentiment towards Russia has warmed since Putin's horrific invasion. In fact, polls say it's overwhelmingly negative [2,3], which is hardly surprising given Putin has destroyed these people's lives for no reason. [1] https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2022/04/15/russia-ukraine-donbas-donetsk-luhansk-public-opinion/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2022/04/15/russia-uk... [2] https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-60938544 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-60938544 [3] https://www.jpost.com/international/article-707900 https://www.jpost.com/international/article-707900
  - thriftwy 4y ago
    In the poll of [1], only 20% of LDNR pollsters are saying they want to be a part of Ukraine. The rest of the article seems to be working around that number, which represents the total failure of the Ukrainian state. They have lost Donetsk for good.
    - civilized 4y ago
      Perhaps they have indeed lost the small parts of Donetsk and Luhansk Oblasts that comprise the separatist republics. It's no reason to give Russia another inch beyond those, since the people in the remainder overwhelmingly oppose Russian control of their lands.
      - thriftwy 4y ago
        This poll also shows that people are overwhelmingly like to vote for the status quo. The status quo for quite large part of that land is now "Russian military administration". That, combined with the fact that Ukrainian forces bomb civians such as the attacks on Kherson, allows Russia to try and keep it.
        civilized 4y ago
        You: "Ukraine has lost Donetsk forever" Also you: "People just support whoever most recently took over" Seems like internal consistency is less important to you than asserting whatever Putin would like to be true.
        thriftwy 4y ago
        I don't think Ukraine is taking over Donetsk by force.

thriftwy 4y ago

Can it simply be that eventually Ukrainians understand that the deal was always like I have described it in the previous post? Ukraine is very diverse country. It still considers citizens of Crimea and LDNR of its own, but I'm pretty sure these are now hating Ukraine passionately. Especially after many, many acts of Ukraine bombing Donetsk in absense of any sensible military goal. If the boys and girls from Kievan twitter hate Russia with passion, that is survivable.

civilized 4y ago
> Can it simply be that eventually Ukrainians understand that the deal was always like I have described it in the previous post? That still leaves my same question. If their understanding is the same as yours, why did they not surrender on day 3 as you said they should? Could it be that Putin has activated their national identity by threatening them into collective self-defense? And now that they have held their own despite being brutalized, do you think they will forget their achievements and hand over their lives to their attackers? Perhaps they have gained more self-respect than that. Perhaps they see themselves as more than just collateral damage in some great power struggle. > Ukraine is very diverse country. It still considers citizens of Crimea and LDNR of its own, but I'm pretty sure these are now hating Ukraine passionately. Especially after many, many acts of Ukraine bombing Donetsk in absense of any sensible military goal. Unfortunately there is no one to tell us what Donbas Ukrainians think, free of propaganda. But it will become clear soon enough. For now all I have is this poll [1], conducted in January, which says a plurality of Donbas residents prefer to be part of Ukraine. I can't imagine that sentiment towards Russia has warmed since Putin's horrific invasion. In fact, polls say it's overwhelmingly negative [2,3], which is hardly surprising given Putin has destroyed these people's lives for no reason. [1] https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2022/04/15/russia-ukraine-donbas-donetsk-luhansk-public-opinion/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2022/04/15/russia-uk... [2] https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-60938544 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-60938544 [3] https://www.jpost.com/international/article-707900 https://www.jpost.com/international/article-707900
- thriftwy 4y ago
  In the poll of [1], only 20% of LDNR pollsters are saying they want to be a part of Ukraine. The rest of the article seems to be working around that number, which represents the total failure of the Ukrainian state. They have lost Donetsk for good.
  - civilized 4y ago
    Perhaps they have indeed lost the small parts of Donetsk and Luhansk Oblasts that comprise the separatist republics. It's no reason to give Russia another inch beyond those, since the people in the remainder overwhelmingly oppose Russian control of their lands.
    - thriftwy 4y ago
      This poll also shows that people are overwhelmingly like to vote for the status quo. The status quo for quite large part of that land is now "Russian military administration". That, combined with the fact that Ukrainian forces bomb civians such as the attacks on Kherson, allows Russia to try and keep it.
      - civilized 4y ago
        You: "Ukraine has lost Donetsk forever" Also you: "People just support whoever most recently took over" Seems like internal consistency is less important to you than asserting whatever Putin would like to be true.
        thriftwy 4y ago
        I don't think Ukraine is taking over Donetsk by force.