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I hope they are seeing the whole picture clearly. Historically, Russia has demonstrated tremendous will to fight on in a degraded state. At the very least, at

I hope they are seeing the whole picture clearly. Historically, Russia has demonstrated tremendous will to fight on in a degraded state. At the very least, at the end of this war, Putin must be persuaded that the cost of additional invasions is not worth the benefit. The West must arm Ukraine to the teeth and hope this is accomplished. I am certain he will try to take as much as he believes he can.

thriftwy 4y ago
> Russia has demonstrated tremendous will to fight on in a degraded state. > Putin must be persuaded that the cost of additional invasions is not worth the benefit. The West must arm Ukraine to the teeth So your plan for success as follows: * Arm Ukraine to the teeth to fight Russia * Ukraine loses anyway at a great cost of its human life * Russia decides not to invade any more countries (success) * (bonus) Ukraine now has to return these hopeless war loans What's in it for Ukraine compared to just surrendering on day 3?
- civilized 4y ago
  Good question. Maybe you should ask the Ukrainians why they didn't surrender on day 3. In fact, why didn't they welcome Russia as liberators? Did the Evil West whisper in their collective ears, like Rasputin, casting a spell on them to become our puppets? Or... could it simply be that Ukrainians hate the Russian invader as passionately as Russians still hate the Nazis today? Passionately and rightly, for invading their country and slaughtering millions of their people? Putin, the delusional fool, has no idea the depth his evil imprint has forever laid upon Ukrainian-Russian relations. He thought that shared history, religion, etc. would excuse the oceans of blood, an entire nation's livelihood disrupted and destroyed. He thought he could brutalize Europeans into submission. He was wrong, and now there is no turning back.
  - thriftwy 4y ago
    Can it simply be that eventually Ukrainians understand that the deal was always like I have described it in the previous post? Ukraine is very diverse country. It still considers citizens of Crimea and LDNR of its own, but I'm pretty sure these are now hating Ukraine passionately. Especially after many, many acts of Ukraine bombing Donetsk in absense of any sensible military goal. If the boys and girls from Kievan twitter hate Russia with passion, that is survivable.
    - civilized 4y ago
      > Can it simply be that eventually Ukrainians understand that the deal was always like I have described it in the previous post? That still leaves my same question. If their understanding is the same as yours, why did they not surrender on day 3 as you said they should? Could it be that Putin has activated their national identity by threatening them into collective self-defense? And now that they have held their own despite being brutalized, do you think they will forget their achievements and hand over their lives to their attackers? Perhaps they have gained more self-respect than that. Perhaps they see themselves as more than just collateral damage in some great power struggle. > Ukraine is very diverse country. It still considers citizens of Crimea and LDNR of its own, but I'm pretty sure these are now hating Ukraine passionately. Especially after many, many acts of Ukraine bombing Donetsk in absense of any sensible military goal. Unfortunately there is no one to tell us what Donbas Ukrainians think, free of propaganda. But it will become clear soon enough. For now all I have is this poll [1], conducted in January, which says a plurality of Donbas residents prefer to be part of Ukraine. I can't imagine that sentiment towards Russia has warmed since Putin's horrific invasion. In fact, polls say it's overwhelmingly negative [2,3], which is hardly surprising given Putin has destroyed these people's lives for no reason. [1] https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2022/04/15/russia-ukraine-donbas-donetsk-luhansk-public-opinion/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2022/04/15/russia-uk... [2] https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-60938544 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-60938544 [3] https://www.jpost.com/international/article-707900 https://www.jpost.com/international/article-707900
      - thriftwy 4y ago
        In the poll of [1], only 20% of LDNR pollsters are saying they want to be a part of Ukraine. The rest of the article seems to be working around that number, which represents the total failure of the Ukrainian state. They have lost Donetsk for good.
        civilized 4y ago
        Perhaps they have indeed lost the small parts of Donetsk and Luhansk Oblasts that comprise the separatist republics. It's no reason to give Russia another inch beyond those, since the people in the remainder overwhelmingly oppose Russian control of their lands.
- attentive 4y ago
  You assume that surrendering is without a consequence to Ukrainians. When in fact we can expect pretty much Ukrainian genocide which was both declared by Putin and can already be seen in occupied territories with executions, rapes, concentration camps, deportations, forbidding language etc. When you have to defend yourself you defend yourself. Arguing otherwise is immoral. Also, Ukraine loosing ensures russia attack other countries (using Ukrainians no less). That's why all the countries next in line are the most supporting Ukraine's defense i.e. Poland, Baltics, Sweden, Finland etc.
  - civilized 4y ago
    No wonder Ukrainians are so anti-Russia now. During this invasion, they and all their infrastructure have been made cannon fodder for Putin's ego. If they capitulate, they will be conscripted to be cannon fodder for Putin's ego again. This is the grim destiny of those who submit to Putin's self-styled resurgent Russian Empire.
  - thriftwy 4y ago
    > already be seen in occupied territories with executions, rapes, concentration camps, deportations I hope you have heard that Ukrainian parliament had to fire Denisova, who was responsible for watching human right violations and was making claims out of thin air. A lot of western press quoted her fervently. So unknown part of these allegations is compromised. > forbidding language Say ukrainians, who are working in limiting Russian usage for 30 years already. If they were to surrender on day 3 they will get a puppet government (of ukrainians) and most of their country intact (no Crimea, but Donbass could be reintegrated). But that's mostly off the table now.

thriftwy 4y ago

> Russia has demonstrated tremendous will to fight on in a degraded state. > Putin must be persuaded that the cost of additional invasions is not worth the benefit. The West must arm Ukraine to the teeth So your plan for success as follows: * Arm Ukraine to the teeth to fight Russia * Ukraine loses anyway at a great cost of its human life * Russia decides not to invade any more countries (success) * (bonus) Ukraine now has to return these hopeless war loans What's in it for Ukraine compared to just surrendering on day 3?

civilized 4y ago
Good question. Maybe you should ask the Ukrainians why they didn't surrender on day 3. In fact, why didn't they welcome Russia as liberators? Did the Evil West whisper in their collective ears, like Rasputin, casting a spell on them to become our puppets? Or... could it simply be that Ukrainians hate the Russian invader as passionately as Russians still hate the Nazis today? Passionately and rightly, for invading their country and slaughtering millions of their people? Putin, the delusional fool, has no idea the depth his evil imprint has forever laid upon Ukrainian-Russian relations. He thought that shared history, religion, etc. would excuse the oceans of blood, an entire nation's livelihood disrupted and destroyed. He thought he could brutalize Europeans into submission. He was wrong, and now there is no turning back.
- thriftwy 4y ago
  Can it simply be that eventually Ukrainians understand that the deal was always like I have described it in the previous post? Ukraine is very diverse country. It still considers citizens of Crimea and LDNR of its own, but I'm pretty sure these are now hating Ukraine passionately. Especially after many, many acts of Ukraine bombing Donetsk in absense of any sensible military goal. If the boys and girls from Kievan twitter hate Russia with passion, that is survivable.
  - civilized 4y ago
    > Can it simply be that eventually Ukrainians understand that the deal was always like I have described it in the previous post? That still leaves my same question. If their understanding is the same as yours, why did they not surrender on day 3 as you said they should? Could it be that Putin has activated their national identity by threatening them into collective self-defense? And now that they have held their own despite being brutalized, do you think they will forget their achievements and hand over their lives to their attackers? Perhaps they have gained more self-respect than that. Perhaps they see themselves as more than just collateral damage in some great power struggle. > Ukraine is very diverse country. It still considers citizens of Crimea and LDNR of its own, but I'm pretty sure these are now hating Ukraine passionately. Especially after many, many acts of Ukraine bombing Donetsk in absense of any sensible military goal. Unfortunately there is no one to tell us what Donbas Ukrainians think, free of propaganda. But it will become clear soon enough. For now all I have is this poll [1], conducted in January, which says a plurality of Donbas residents prefer to be part of Ukraine. I can't imagine that sentiment towards Russia has warmed since Putin's horrific invasion. In fact, polls say it's overwhelmingly negative [2,3], which is hardly surprising given Putin has destroyed these people's lives for no reason. [1] https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2022/04/15/russia-ukraine-donbas-donetsk-luhansk-public-opinion/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2022/04/15/russia-uk... [2] https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-60938544 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-60938544 [3] https://www.jpost.com/international/article-707900 https://www.jpost.com/international/article-707900
    - thriftwy 4y ago
      In the poll of [1], only 20% of LDNR pollsters are saying they want to be a part of Ukraine. The rest of the article seems to be working around that number, which represents the total failure of the Ukrainian state. They have lost Donetsk for good.
      - civilized 4y ago
        Perhaps they have indeed lost the small parts of Donetsk and Luhansk Oblasts that comprise the separatist republics. It's no reason to give Russia another inch beyond those, since the people in the remainder overwhelmingly oppose Russian control of their lands.
attentive 4y ago
You assume that surrendering is without a consequence to Ukrainians. When in fact we can expect pretty much Ukrainian genocide which was both declared by Putin and can already be seen in occupied territories with executions, rapes, concentration camps, deportations, forbidding language etc. When you have to defend yourself you defend yourself. Arguing otherwise is immoral. Also, Ukraine loosing ensures russia attack other countries (using Ukrainians no less). That's why all the countries next in line are the most supporting Ukraine's defense i.e. Poland, Baltics, Sweden, Finland etc.
- civilized 4y ago
  No wonder Ukrainians are so anti-Russia now. During this invasion, they and all their infrastructure have been made cannon fodder for Putin's ego. If they capitulate, they will be conscripted to be cannon fodder for Putin's ego again. This is the grim destiny of those who submit to Putin's self-styled resurgent Russian Empire.
- thriftwy 4y ago
  > already be seen in occupied territories with executions, rapes, concentration camps, deportations I hope you have heard that Ukrainian parliament had to fire Denisova, who was responsible for watching human right violations and was making claims out of thin air. A lot of western press quoted her fervently. So unknown part of these allegations is compromised. > forbidding language Say ukrainians, who are working in limiting Russian usage for 30 years already. If they were to surrender on day 3 they will get a puppet government (of ukrainians) and most of their country intact (no Crimea, but Donbass could be reintegrated). But that's mostly off the table now.