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Then the nature of the universe (so far as we understand it) is "bad".

iancmceachern 4y ago
True. This is a weird line of thought, but I'll bite. The universe it constantly trying to kill us all. It's entropy. Life is fundamentally fighting against that entropy to keep itself well, alive. So yes, in our "living thing" world view the whole universe is always trying to kill us (life) and we (life) are locked in a constant existential battle with entropy to stay alive. So to oversimplify it yes, we (life) are good and the universe is evil in this thought experiment.
- NateEag 4y ago
  this reminds me vaguely of the "soul growth" concept, the idea that the universe is a place for beings to grow by means of struggle and trial. Shows up in Christian Orthodox theology, IIRC.
- whimsicalism 4y ago
  There is no "fight" against entropy, there is just the evolution of a deterministic wavefunction over time.
  - iancmceachern 4y ago
    Aren't things like the poleo vaccine or penicillin that? We could let the universe do its will, or fight against it. The same could be said for ants building rafts to survive a flood. That seems like life fighting against entropy to survive to me.
    - apocalypstyx 4y ago
      Entropy (like the house) always wins. (Unless we're wrong about physics.) If I remember correctly, life actually increases the rate of entropy. So, conceptually, the more life, the faster the universe approaches heat death.
      - iancmceachern 4y ago
        Thank you both for this. It turns my world view upside down, but that's good. I've been seeing it as the universe tearing us down this whole time. Really it's us tearing the universe down. Somehow this is much more comforting to me. Thank you!
    - whimsicalism 4y ago
      Except that all of those things merely arise from the deterministic evolution of a wavefunction that is subject to the laws of thermodynamics. "inventing the polio vaccine" was just a set of deterministic interactions between atoms in Jonas Salk's brain. During that entire process, entropy only increased, the universe further unwinds itself.
      - inkblotuniverse 4y ago
        That isn't usually a useful perspective for an agent to take.
        whimsicalism 4y ago
        It is the perspective that is consistent with how we know reality to function, its usefulness or lack thereof doesn't play in.

True. This is a weird line of thought, but I'll bite. The universe it constantly trying to kill us all. It's entropy. Life is fundamentally fighting against that entropy to keep itself well, alive. So yes, in our "living thing" world view the whole universe is always trying to kill us (life) and we (life) are locked in a constant existential battle with entropy to stay alive. So to oversimplify it yes, we (life) are good and the universe is evil in this thought experiment.

NateEag 4y ago
this reminds me vaguely of the "soul growth" concept, the idea that the universe is a place for beings to grow by means of struggle and trial. Shows up in Christian Orthodox theology, IIRC.
whimsicalism 4y ago
There is no "fight" against entropy, there is just the evolution of a deterministic wavefunction over time.
- iancmceachern 4y ago
  Aren't things like the poleo vaccine or penicillin that? We could let the universe do its will, or fight against it. The same could be said for ants building rafts to survive a flood. That seems like life fighting against entropy to survive to me.
  - apocalypstyx 4y ago
    Entropy (like the house) always wins. (Unless we're wrong about physics.) If I remember correctly, life actually increases the rate of entropy. So, conceptually, the more life, the faster the universe approaches heat death.
    - iancmceachern 4y ago
      Thank you both for this. It turns my world view upside down, but that's good. I've been seeing it as the universe tearing us down this whole time. Really it's us tearing the universe down. Somehow this is much more comforting to me. Thank you!
  - whimsicalism 4y ago
    Except that all of those things merely arise from the deterministic evolution of a wavefunction that is subject to the laws of thermodynamics. "inventing the polio vaccine" was just a set of deterministic interactions between atoms in Jonas Salk's brain. During that entire process, entropy only increased, the universe further unwinds itself.
    - inkblotuniverse 4y ago
      That isn't usually a useful perspective for an agent to take.
      - whimsicalism 4y ago
        It is the perspective that is consistent with how we know reality to function, its usefulness or lack thereof doesn't play in.