5 ms·

I don't need new selectors, I need a way to specify layouts. You know, to do the same things as tables did back in the days, but without all the ugliness.

masklinn 15y ago
http://www.w3.org/TR/css3-multicol/ http://www.w3.org/TR/css3-multicol/ http://www.w3.org/TR/css3-grid-layout/ http://www.w3.org/TR/css3-grid-layout/
- StrawberryFrog 15y ago
  Are the ms-grids and the multicolumn layouts in CSS4? It doesn't look like it from that draft. Are they just free-floating proposals at this stage?
  - masklinn 15y ago
    The reality is that there's no such thing as CSS4, and no such thing as CSS3 either: starting with CSS3 the spec was "modularized", meaning it was broken up in a bunch of separate and mostly-independent "modules", which are grouped in a "level" but are specified on their own[0]. So the situation is that TFA talks not about CSS4 but about "Level 4 Selectors" (a draft), talking about "CSS4" is language abuse. The specs I linked are Level 3 specs, but independent of selectors and of one another (columns are a CR, grid is a working draft). To sum up, your question does not really make sense. Grids and columns are part of "CSS4" insofar as they are part of "CSS3" through being Level 3 specifications, but that's completely meaningless. Level 4 selectors could become recommandations before (level 3) grids reach that state, or not. There's no dependency. (columns are already supported by all modern browsers except MSIE). I'd recommend using (and abusing) http://caniuse.com/ http://caniuse.com/ to see the implementation state of each spec, it's become especially important with modular level 3 specs as implementors are free to add one level 3 spec and ignore an other. [0] You can see a list of specs at http://www.w3.org/TR/#tr_CSS http://www.w3.org/TR/#tr_CSS, note how some Level 3 specs are Recommendations, others are Candidate Recommandations, yet others are Last Calls or Drafts.
    - StrawberryFrog 15y ago
      In summary: no, they're in CSS3; but it's all modular and might not be implemented at the same time. There is incentive for MS Grids to go forward soon, they're important to MS for use in Windows 8. Also, they're cool, or rather they're a sane layout scheme and it's awful that CSS hasn't had one up to now. The irony is that Firefox and Chrome will implement them at about the same time that they become official. But we won't be able to use them widely until IE7,8 and 9 have faded from the web. MS giveth, MS taketh away.
      - masklinn 15y ago
        > In summary: no, they're in CSS3 No. In summary, the question itself does not make sense, it's like asking if the sun tastes better than communism.
        StrawberryFrog 15y ago
        That's not quite right though; there is a CSS level 3 and these specs are in it.
- lukestevens 15y ago
  Yes, exciting that Gird Layout is shipping in IE10. Hard to believe MS will be the first to ship a true CSS layout solution. Solutions like display:table enforces source order, which to me is pretty undesirable (e.g. when A/B testing layouts by switching a CSS file).
robin_reala 15y ago
display:table / display:table-row / display:table-cell ?
- Chris_Newton 15y ago
  One problem with that idea is that tools like CSS tables still have some dependency on the source order in the HTML. So do certain other popular tools, notably various aspects of float positioning. If we're going to have a proper separation of content from presentation, such that we can do things like alternative layouts for responsive design or A/B testing using only the presentation layer, there has to be a viable mechanism for overriding that sort of source-order dependency.

masklinn 15y ago

http://www.w3.org/TR/css3-multicol/ http://www.w3.org/TR/css3-multicol/ http://www.w3.org/TR/css3-grid-layout/ http://www.w3.org/TR/css3-grid-layout/

StrawberryFrog 15y ago
Are the ms-grids and the multicolumn layouts in CSS4? It doesn't look like it from that draft. Are they just free-floating proposals at this stage?
- masklinn 15y ago
  The reality is that there's no such thing as CSS4, and no such thing as CSS3 either: starting with CSS3 the spec was "modularized", meaning it was broken up in a bunch of separate and mostly-independent "modules", which are grouped in a "level" but are specified on their own[0]. So the situation is that TFA talks not about CSS4 but about "Level 4 Selectors" (a draft), talking about "CSS4" is language abuse. The specs I linked are Level 3 specs, but independent of selectors and of one another (columns are a CR, grid is a working draft). To sum up, your question does not really make sense. Grids and columns are part of "CSS4" insofar as they are part of "CSS3" through being Level 3 specifications, but that's completely meaningless. Level 4 selectors could become recommandations before (level 3) grids reach that state, or not. There's no dependency. (columns are already supported by all modern browsers except MSIE). I'd recommend using (and abusing) http://caniuse.com/ http://caniuse.com/ to see the implementation state of each spec, it's become especially important with modular level 3 specs as implementors are free to add one level 3 spec and ignore an other. [0] You can see a list of specs at http://www.w3.org/TR/#tr_CSS http://www.w3.org/TR/#tr_CSS, note how some Level 3 specs are Recommendations, others are Candidate Recommandations, yet others are Last Calls or Drafts.
  - StrawberryFrog 15y ago
    In summary: no, they're in CSS3; but it's all modular and might not be implemented at the same time. There is incentive for MS Grids to go forward soon, they're important to MS for use in Windows 8. Also, they're cool, or rather they're a sane layout scheme and it's awful that CSS hasn't had one up to now. The irony is that Firefox and Chrome will implement them at about the same time that they become official. But we won't be able to use them widely until IE7,8 and 9 have faded from the web. MS giveth, MS taketh away.
    - masklinn 15y ago
      > In summary: no, they're in CSS3 No. In summary, the question itself does not make sense, it's like asking if the sun tastes better than communism.
      - StrawberryFrog 15y ago
        That's not quite right though; there is a CSS level 3 and these specs are in it.
lukestevens 15y ago
Yes, exciting that Gird Layout is shipping in IE10. Hard to believe MS will be the first to ship a true CSS layout solution. Solutions like display:table enforces source order, which to me is pretty undesirable (e.g. when A/B testing layouts by switching a CSS file).

robin_reala 15y ago

display:table / display:table-row / display:table-cell ?

Chris_Newton 15y ago
One problem with that idea is that tools like CSS tables still have some dependency on the source order in the HTML. So do certain other popular tools, notably various aspects of float positioning. If we're going to have a proper separation of content from presentation, such that we can do things like alternative layouts for responsive design or A/B testing using only the presentation layer, there has to be a viable mechanism for overriding that sort of source-order dependency.