6 ms·

A flawed ideal maybe, but you can't say it's a scam.

gitfan86 4y ago
The only reason you cannot say Coinbase is isn't a scam is because it is impossible to prove that the people involved were lying in regards to the viability of crypto not being effectively a Ponzi scheme.
- solveit 4y ago
  It is very difficult to believe Brian Armstrong was cynically cashing in on what he perceived as a Ponzi ten years ago when he founded Coinbase (he posted an ad for a co-founder here on HN).
  - kelnos 4y ago
    Unless you personally know him well and have spoken with him at length about this, I don't think that opinion is based on anything substantial. A post on HN looking for a cofounder tells you only what the person wants you to believe they're thinking and feeling about what they're doing.
    - darkteflon 4y ago
      Guilty until proven innocent.
      - kelnos 4y ago
        Not really. Just you don't know what you don't know. You're not going to get a reliable feel for someone's motivations unless you actually know them and spend a bit of time talking to them about what they're doing. A "cofounder wanted" post on HN doesn't remotely cut it.
    - solveit 4y ago
      My opinion is based on it being completely insane to stake multiple years of your life on starting a cryptocurrency exchange in 2012 unless you had a sincere belief in the promise of blockchain technology. Crypto circa 2012 didn't look anything like what it is now.
      - cyanydeez 4y ago
        People make insane gambles all the time? Some of the most neurotic people find success. Imagine you could peer into all the class A gamblers, there'll always be a subset who get lucky and convince themselves they "worked harder' or whatever. Point is, without proper interrogation, it looks like a gamble and crypto looks like a scam. There's always tops of pyramid schemes.
      - kelnos 4y ago
        Agree with the sibling that people make insane gambles all the time. But beyond that, I don't think your premise holds true. People do often start companies because they believe in (or even have a passion for) the thing their company will be doing. But people often just start companies because they believe those companies can make them money. That doesn't mean that the thing the company does is going to be good and sustainable over the longer term. Just that there's some money to be made, even if it's on the backs of speculators and gamblers that don't provide much value to the ecosystem.
- fosk 4y ago
  There is value in a global blockchain with the level of participation of crypto. And sure there are scams, there are scams in the real economy too. Ponzi is not an acronym for “I don’t understand its value therefore it’s a Ponzi scheme”.
  - smeeding 4y ago
    I think the Ponzi claims stem from the fact that so many people are in the market for speculative profit (and not to revolutionize finance or whatever), and the fact that earlier investors can only capitalize on their investments by proselytizing, recruiting, and ultimately selling their bags to new investors. Framed that way, it’s quite Ponzi-ish.
    - r3trohack3r 4y ago
      This is true of any value storage vehicle. You only make money - or get your money back out - by passing it on to the next person. Art, baseball cards, stamps, stocks, gold etc. all work this way.
      - dragontamer 4y ago
        You make money from stocks by holding onto them and collecting the dividend.
      - unicornmama 4y ago
        None of the things you mentioned are "value storage vehicles". Currencies may be a stores of value. Gold is a hedge against hyper inflation and global crisis. Art is an elaborate mechanism for money laundering. Baseball, stamps, and pokemon cards are collectibles and eb and flow with the tides of pop culture And I am too tired to explain stocks to you. > You only make money - or get your money back out - by passing it on to the next person. It might actual shock you to learn that the US money supply historically grows faster than inflation.
      - smeeding 4y ago
        > all work this way Do they though? Unlike cryptos, gold and stocks have real material value behind them, not just community buy-in. You can make the art/baseball cards/stamps argument, but then you’d be conceding that the value of cryptos — something pitched as a revolutionary technology with limitless profit potential — is, in reality, determined by the same irrational valuation process as niche collectible markets. There’s a reason we don’t pay for groceries and mortgages with baseball cards and stamps.
Marazan 4y ago
It's a scam.

The only reason you cannot say Coinbase is isn't a scam is because it is impossible to prove that the people involved were lying in regards to the viability of crypto not being effectively a Ponzi scheme.

solveit 4y ago
It is very difficult to believe Brian Armstrong was cynically cashing in on what he perceived as a Ponzi ten years ago when he founded Coinbase (he posted an ad for a co-founder here on HN).
- kelnos 4y ago
  Unless you personally know him well and have spoken with him at length about this, I don't think that opinion is based on anything substantial. A post on HN looking for a cofounder tells you only what the person wants you to believe they're thinking and feeling about what they're doing.
  - darkteflon 4y ago
    Guilty until proven innocent.
    - kelnos 4y ago
      Not really. Just you don't know what you don't know. You're not going to get a reliable feel for someone's motivations unless you actually know them and spend a bit of time talking to them about what they're doing. A "cofounder wanted" post on HN doesn't remotely cut it.
  - solveit 4y ago
    My opinion is based on it being completely insane to stake multiple years of your life on starting a cryptocurrency exchange in 2012 unless you had a sincere belief in the promise of blockchain technology. Crypto circa 2012 didn't look anything like what it is now.
    - cyanydeez 4y ago
      People make insane gambles all the time? Some of the most neurotic people find success. Imagine you could peer into all the class A gamblers, there'll always be a subset who get lucky and convince themselves they "worked harder' or whatever. Point is, without proper interrogation, it looks like a gamble and crypto looks like a scam. There's always tops of pyramid schemes.
    - kelnos 4y ago
      Agree with the sibling that people make insane gambles all the time. But beyond that, I don't think your premise holds true. People do often start companies because they believe in (or even have a passion for) the thing their company will be doing. But people often just start companies because they believe those companies can make them money. That doesn't mean that the thing the company does is going to be good and sustainable over the longer term. Just that there's some money to be made, even if it's on the backs of speculators and gamblers that don't provide much value to the ecosystem.
fosk 4y ago
There is value in a global blockchain with the level of participation of crypto. And sure there are scams, there are scams in the real economy too. Ponzi is not an acronym for “I don’t understand its value therefore it’s a Ponzi scheme”.
- smeeding 4y ago
  I think the Ponzi claims stem from the fact that so many people are in the market for speculative profit (and not to revolutionize finance or whatever), and the fact that earlier investors can only capitalize on their investments by proselytizing, recruiting, and ultimately selling their bags to new investors. Framed that way, it’s quite Ponzi-ish.
  - r3trohack3r 4y ago
    This is true of any value storage vehicle. You only make money - or get your money back out - by passing it on to the next person. Art, baseball cards, stamps, stocks, gold etc. all work this way.
    - dragontamer 4y ago
      You make money from stocks by holding onto them and collecting the dividend.
    - unicornmama 4y ago
      None of the things you mentioned are "value storage vehicles". Currencies may be a stores of value. Gold is a hedge against hyper inflation and global crisis. Art is an elaborate mechanism for money laundering. Baseball, stamps, and pokemon cards are collectibles and eb and flow with the tides of pop culture And I am too tired to explain stocks to you. > You only make money - or get your money back out - by passing it on to the next person. It might actual shock you to learn that the US money supply historically grows faster than inflation.
    - smeeding 4y ago
      > all work this way Do they though? Unlike cryptos, gold and stocks have real material value behind them, not just community buy-in. You can make the art/baseball cards/stamps argument, but then you’d be conceding that the value of cryptos — something pitched as a revolutionary technology with limitless profit potential — is, in reality, determined by the same irrational valuation process as niche collectible markets. There’s a reason we don’t pay for groceries and mortgages with baseball cards and stamps.

Marazan 4y ago

It's a scam.