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I mean, Russian propaganda claims that the reason is the same: intervening in a genocide. But obviously this isn’t the case—Russia started a war in a region of

I mean, Russian propaganda claims that the reason is the same: intervening in a genocide. But obviously this isn’t the case—Russia started a war in a region of Ukraine that has a lot of ethnic Russians and attributed all casualties (including the Kremlin-backed Russian separatist combatants) as “victims of a genocide campaign” including those who were killed by Russian and Russian-backed forces. So no, it’s not the same at all as NATO intervening in an actual ethnic cleansing campaign.

ajsnigrutin 4y ago
US (and a few other countries) attacked Iraq, because propaganda claimed that they had weapons of mass destruction. Let's not forget the time before that, where iraqis supposedly killed babies in a hospital. Somehow we treat those wars and those agressors differently.
- throwaway894345 4y ago
  This whataboutism is just more Russian propaganda (it’s a boilerplate argument that gets copy/pasted into every single debate about Russia’s invasion of Ukraine). It has absolutely nothing to do with the war in Ukraine, and the Iraq War doesn’t justify Russia’s conquest of Ukraine.
  - ajsnigrutin 4y ago
    Why is different though? Except for americans being our "friends", and us helping them?
    - throwaway894345 4y ago
      Nah, I'm not going to accept deflection to unrelated wars. If you want to discuss the Iraq War in an appropriate thread, I'm happy to do so, but it doesn't justify Russia's ongoing conquest of Ukraine.
      - ajsnigrutin 4y ago
        Nah, iraq war is over... maybe we can discuss syria, since my countries army is currently invading them as a part of nato forces. Maybe even lebanon. We're not in somalia (yet?), but americans are there now too. We luckily pulled our solders out of afghanistan in the last moment, but we were a part of occupying forces there too, just like the belarus army is in ukraine.
- didibus 4y ago
  > Somehow we treat those wars and those agressors differently We really don't. There's been much acknowledgement that the Iraq war was a mistake and wasn't justified, since no weapons of mass destruction were found. I think it would have been great for countries to sanction the US over it, but at the time, part of Europe also thought that if Iraq had nuclear weapons they'd be a threat to them. But Russia should have sanctioned US and Europe, they should have cut their supply of oil for example. I'd have been for it. Just as the US should have been sanctioned then, and the war in Iraq should have not happened or been prevented, so is the war in Ukraine. Normally we should learn from past mistakes, Iraq was a mistake, the world should have acted different back then and didn't. Now Ukraine is a chance to do better and act as we should have in Iraq. Note: The other distinction is that Iraq was a clear and obvious dictatorship, so there was hope that it could improve the lives of the people of Iraq and lift them into more individual rights and prosperity. Ukraine is not as clear, in appearance it seems they are on a good path to have more individual rights and prosperity, and it looks like Russia's trying to stop them from doing so. Is that completely accurate, hard to say, but probability wise it is a possibility. So from the angle of picking a side as well, it's easier to side with Ukraine, which appear to support individual rights and democracy, and against Russia, which appears to oppose individual freedoms and seems to be moving towards full on dictatorship.
  - ajsnigrutin 4y ago
    > We really don't. There's been much acknowledgement that the Iraq war was a mistake and wasn't justified, since no weapons of mass destruction were found. But we didn't sanction them. We're still friends with them. We even helped them. > but at the time, part of Europe also thought that if Iraq had nuclear weapons they'd be a threat to them. I'm pretty sure 'we' (our leaders, who sent our armies there) knew that iraq had no such weapons... Tony Blair even half admited it. > Normally we should learn from past mistakes, Iraq was a mistake, the world should have acted different back then and didn't. Now Ukraine is a chance to do better and act as we should have in Iraq. So, we knew iraq was a mistake, and we stopped? After the first time? Or after the second time? What about syria? Libya? What about somalia? Didn't biden just send more troops there? I won't even mention afghanistan... US basically armed the terrorists for the next few decades with their pull-out. > Ukraine is not as clear, in appearance it seems they are on a good path to have more individual rights and prosperity, and it looks like Russia's trying to stop them from doing so. Is that completely accurate, hard to say, but probability wise it is a possibility. Let's be fair... ukraine has areas where a lot of russians live, and they weren't very nice to those russians (and i mean "nice" in the same way as israelis are not "nice" to palestinians...). Somehow many people have forgot about those things (ukraine) or don't care about the others (isreal).

ajsnigrutin 4y ago

US (and a few other countries) attacked Iraq, because propaganda claimed that they had weapons of mass destruction. Let's not forget the time before that, where iraqis supposedly killed babies in a hospital. Somehow we treat those wars and those agressors differently.

throwaway894345 4y ago
This whataboutism is just more Russian propaganda (it’s a boilerplate argument that gets copy/pasted into every single debate about Russia’s invasion of Ukraine). It has absolutely nothing to do with the war in Ukraine, and the Iraq War doesn’t justify Russia’s conquest of Ukraine.
- ajsnigrutin 4y ago
  Why is different though? Except for americans being our "friends", and us helping them?
  - throwaway894345 4y ago
    Nah, I'm not going to accept deflection to unrelated wars. If you want to discuss the Iraq War in an appropriate thread, I'm happy to do so, but it doesn't justify Russia's ongoing conquest of Ukraine.
    - ajsnigrutin 4y ago
      Nah, iraq war is over... maybe we can discuss syria, since my countries army is currently invading them as a part of nato forces. Maybe even lebanon. We're not in somalia (yet?), but americans are there now too. We luckily pulled our solders out of afghanistan in the last moment, but we were a part of occupying forces there too, just like the belarus army is in ukraine.
didibus 4y ago
> Somehow we treat those wars and those agressors differently We really don't. There's been much acknowledgement that the Iraq war was a mistake and wasn't justified, since no weapons of mass destruction were found. I think it would have been great for countries to sanction the US over it, but at the time, part of Europe also thought that if Iraq had nuclear weapons they'd be a threat to them. But Russia should have sanctioned US and Europe, they should have cut their supply of oil for example. I'd have been for it. Just as the US should have been sanctioned then, and the war in Iraq should have not happened or been prevented, so is the war in Ukraine. Normally we should learn from past mistakes, Iraq was a mistake, the world should have acted different back then and didn't. Now Ukraine is a chance to do better and act as we should have in Iraq. Note: The other distinction is that Iraq was a clear and obvious dictatorship, so there was hope that it could improve the lives of the people of Iraq and lift them into more individual rights and prosperity. Ukraine is not as clear, in appearance it seems they are on a good path to have more individual rights and prosperity, and it looks like Russia's trying to stop them from doing so. Is that completely accurate, hard to say, but probability wise it is a possibility. So from the angle of picking a side as well, it's easier to side with Ukraine, which appear to support individual rights and democracy, and against Russia, which appears to oppose individual freedoms and seems to be moving towards full on dictatorship.
- ajsnigrutin 4y ago
  > We really don't. There's been much acknowledgement that the Iraq war was a mistake and wasn't justified, since no weapons of mass destruction were found. But we didn't sanction them. We're still friends with them. We even helped them. > but at the time, part of Europe also thought that if Iraq had nuclear weapons they'd be a threat to them. I'm pretty sure 'we' (our leaders, who sent our armies there) knew that iraq had no such weapons... Tony Blair even half admited it. > Normally we should learn from past mistakes, Iraq was a mistake, the world should have acted different back then and didn't. Now Ukraine is a chance to do better and act as we should have in Iraq. So, we knew iraq was a mistake, and we stopped? After the first time? Or after the second time? What about syria? Libya? What about somalia? Didn't biden just send more troops there? I won't even mention afghanistan... US basically armed the terrorists for the next few decades with their pull-out. > Ukraine is not as clear, in appearance it seems they are on a good path to have more individual rights and prosperity, and it looks like Russia's trying to stop them from doing so. Is that completely accurate, hard to say, but probability wise it is a possibility. Let's be fair... ukraine has areas where a lot of russians live, and they weren't very nice to those russians (and i mean "nice" in the same way as israelis are not "nice" to palestinians...). Somehow many people have forgot about those things (ukraine) or don't care about the others (isreal).