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You can find embarrassing far right extremists and parties in every country these days. Ukraine is hardly a new nazi Germany.

by synu 4y ago

ajsnigrutin 4y ago
How many of those far right groups were integrated into national armies, as Azov was?
- synu 4y ago
  Lots, of course. Authoritarians are attracted to militias and militaries. Even in the US: https://www.nbcnews.com/think/opinion/inside-u-s-military-s-battle-white-supremacy-far-right-ncna1010221 https://www.nbcnews.com/think/opinion/inside-u-s-military-s-.... https://www.vice.com/en/article/akv4qp/oath-keepers-us-capitol-stewart-rhodes-far-right-military https://www.vice.com/en/article/akv4qp/oath-keepers-us-capit... has examples from more western countries (I don’t really know what particular evidence you’re looking for that would convince you, but there’s lots out there.)
  - somenameforme 4y ago
    I don't think these sort of things are very comparable. Of course you'll always find extremists in militaries. But in this case the military itself integrated a real Nazi militia as an independent state force. It would be like if the US marines officially recognized the Aryan Brotherhood and gave them their own unit, including with integrating overt Nazi symbols as part of their uniform.
    - synu 4y ago
      Sure, I would definitely agree they are worse in a lot of ways. I don’t really agree their existence is proof that all of Ukraine is a new Nazi Germany and therefore the invasion by Russia is justified. Maybe that’s not what you’re saying either, but that’s where this conversation started.
      - somenameforme 4y ago
        No, that's definitely not what I'm saying. And I also didn't read the original post that way. There are a lot of problems in Ukraine (outside of this war) and they have also done some pretty awful things. Many of the things that go unstated in our media can go some way towards explaining the war, but there's a difference between explaining and justifying. And I increasingly feel that that nuance is being lost in society, which divides us all even further.
        synu 4y ago
        The original is flagged now, but if we read it differently it makes sense we are coming away with different interpretations. In my opinion the person doesn’t seem particularly well informed about basic facts - getting the names of places and regions wrong - and their main argument seems to be that the US has done bad things, so there’s no point inconveniencing ourselves to try to stop Russia and I’m not really sure that follows. I didn’t (personally) find a lot of nuance in the discussion. I do agree that in general nuance and understanding are missing a lot of the times these days.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
pydry 4y ago
Azov isnt unique because it has extremists. It's unique because: * It was founded by a nazi and most of its members appear to be nazis. * It committed atrocities in a civil war against ethnic russians. * It was instrumental in keeping ethnically russian majority areas of Ukraine under Ukraines control. * It was made an official part of the army and lavished with praise by poroshenko despite being largely nazi and having committed atrocities because territory. * When Zelensky came to them asking them to lay down their arms and help end the civil war they told him no and denounced him as a traitor. Officially they have little power or democratic mandate but they told the president that the war shall continue until its bitter end and he capitulated. In the west nazis dont have that kind of power.
xedrac 4y ago
https://paulhjossey.medium.com/the-nazis-were-leftists-deal-with-it-b7f12cc53b6f https://paulhjossey.medium.com/the-nazis-were-leftists-deal-... The Nazis were just as much far left as far right, if not more. It's funny to me how people are unwilling to acknowledge this.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- synu 4y ago
  They seem to mainly be celebrated by people today (at least by the types who celebrate that sort of thing) for their white supremacism rather than their leftist policies.
- ajsnigrutin 4y ago
  The authoritarian far left and far right are very close together, with a tiny bit different politics, but the same end results. It's not a coincidence that the commies and the nazis started the WW2 together... somehow the modern left forgets the soviets/communist involvement.

You can find embarrassing far right extremists and parties in every country these days. Ukraine is hardly a new nazi Germany.

by synu 4y ago

You can find embarrassing far right extremists and parties in every country these days. Ukraine is hardly a new nazi Germany.

ajsnigrutin 4y ago

How many of those far right groups were integrated into national armies, as Azov was?

synu 4y ago
Lots, of course. Authoritarians are attracted to militias and militaries. Even in the US: https://www.nbcnews.com/think/opinion/inside-u-s-military-s-battle-white-supremacy-far-right-ncna1010221 https://www.nbcnews.com/think/opinion/inside-u-s-military-s-.... https://www.vice.com/en/article/akv4qp/oath-keepers-us-capitol-stewart-rhodes-far-right-military https://www.vice.com/en/article/akv4qp/oath-keepers-us-capit... has examples from more western countries (I don’t really know what particular evidence you’re looking for that would convince you, but there’s lots out there.)
- somenameforme 4y ago
  I don't think these sort of things are very comparable. Of course you'll always find extremists in militaries. But in this case the military itself integrated a real Nazi militia as an independent state force. It would be like if the US marines officially recognized the Aryan Brotherhood and gave them their own unit, including with integrating overt Nazi symbols as part of their uniform.
  - synu 4y ago
    Sure, I would definitely agree they are worse in a lot of ways. I don’t really agree their existence is proof that all of Ukraine is a new Nazi Germany and therefore the invasion by Russia is justified. Maybe that’s not what you’re saying either, but that’s where this conversation started.
    - somenameforme 4y ago
      No, that's definitely not what I'm saying. And I also didn't read the original post that way. There are a lot of problems in Ukraine (outside of this war) and they have also done some pretty awful things. Many of the things that go unstated in our media can go some way towards explaining the war, but there's a difference between explaining and justifying. And I increasingly feel that that nuance is being lost in society, which divides us all even further.
      - synu 4y ago
        The original is flagged now, but if we read it differently it makes sense we are coming away with different interpretations. In my opinion the person doesn’t seem particularly well informed about basic facts - getting the names of places and regions wrong - and their main argument seems to be that the US has done bad things, so there’s no point inconveniencing ourselves to try to stop Russia and I’m not really sure that follows. I didn’t (personally) find a lot of nuance in the discussion. I do agree that in general nuance and understanding are missing a lot of the times these days.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

pydry 4y ago

Azov isnt unique because it has extremists. It's unique because: * It was founded by a nazi and most of its members appear to be nazis. * It committed atrocities in a civil war against ethnic russians. * It was instrumental in keeping ethnically russian majority areas of Ukraine under Ukraines control. * It was made an official part of the army and lavished with praise by poroshenko despite being largely nazi and having committed atrocities because territory. * When Zelensky came to them asking them to lay down their arms and help end the civil war they told him no and denounced him as a traitor. Officially they have little power or democratic mandate but they told the president that the war shall continue until its bitter end and he capitulated. In the west nazis dont have that kind of power.

xedrac 4y ago

https://paulhjossey.medium.com/the-nazis-were-leftists-deal-with-it-b7f12cc53b6f https://paulhjossey.medium.com/the-nazis-were-leftists-deal-... The Nazis were just as much far left as far right, if not more. It's funny to me how people are unwilling to acknowledge this.

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
synu 4y ago
They seem to mainly be celebrated by people today (at least by the types who celebrate that sort of thing) for their white supremacism rather than their leftist policies.
ajsnigrutin 4y ago
The authoritarian far left and far right are very close together, with a tiny bit different politics, but the same end results. It's not a coincidence that the commies and the nazis started the WW2 together... somehow the modern left forgets the soviets/communist involvement.