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It's a clusterfck regardless of which way you do it. There are 3 problems with the structure he describes: (1) In the early days, you might find yourself bei
by gyulai 4y ago
It's a clusterfck regardless of which way you do it.
There are 3 problems with the structure he describes:
(1) In the early days, you might find yourself being a 1-person business, with that 1 person living in Germany and all the business partners you might end up interacting with in real life would be in Germany (especially banks, regulators, etc.) In that situation, it's a bad look if you make your business partners contract with your Delaware C-Corp. It's an even worse look from the angle of money laundering prevention, which is going to be the primary point of view of the bank that you're trying to get an account from, the accountant you're trying to hire, etc. etc.
(2) A P.O. box in Delaware will not be enough to convince German tax authorities not to tax your Delaware C-Corp. They will want to see that your Delaware C-Corp has an actual office with actual people in Delaware, before they give any level of credence to the notion that they shouldn't just tax your Delaware C-Corp as a German GmbH/AG-like entity. If you're already at the stage where you have people contracting for you who actually are in the U.S., maybe you can get away with that. If you're just one or two people in Germany and a P.O.-box in Delaware that won't fly. I tried doing that in Austria where the relevant laws are basically the same, and the court wanted to send an emissary fom the chamber of commerce to visit my supposed office in Delaware. Now, even if you do clear that hurdle, Germany will still try to tax profits that your Delware C-Corp generates in Germany. But how do you determine that number? By doing accounting, based on German accounting standards of course. -- So now the clusterfck really starts to unravel, once you have an actual American wanting to invest in that vehicle, when you've never done accounting the way you were supposed to, from their point of view.
(3) German law recognizes the "Scheingeschäft" [1] and "Umgehung" which is a situation where two people draw up a legal contract that differs from the way they truly arrange their business in real life. E.g. Buyer buys house from seller. They draw up a sales contract for the house for $1M and a contract wherein buyer gives a gift of $1M to seller. They tax $1M as a sale of a house and $1M as a gift, which might come to less than the sale of a house for $2M. German law says that such an arrangement is null and void, and the contract should be treated as if they had contracted to sell a house for $2M in the first place. -- This same theory applies to more complicated situations involving businesses etc. So German law might look at your Delaware C-corp as basically just concealing what is in real life a German GmbH, and might start treating your Delaware C-corp as if it actually was a German GmbH. -- Now you have German law and Delaware law looking at the same legal structure in entirely different an incompatible ways. That's a total nightmare.
SOLUTION: You'd have to add at least a third layer below your Delaware C-Corp, which is a GmbH that actually does business in Germany.
You'd need:
- Max Mayer GmbH, a holding which serves as Max Mayer's alter ego.
- Startup Inc, a Cayman corporation 100% owned by Max Mayer GmbH.
- Startup GmbH, a German Gmbh 100% owned by Startup Inc with a provision in the partnership agreement that says something like: Startup GmbH must return 100% of all profits in excess of $1M to Startup Inc.
Now, for the early part of your growth curve, Y-Combinator wouldn't be involved, and you wouldn't earn $1M: Startup GmbH is now the only thing that matters. Your business partners won't much care who owns the entity they interact with (except for purposes of money laundering prevention, but the only thing they care about is that Max Mayer ultimately owns the whole thing not about what goes in between). The situation of Startup Inc from the pov of German law would still be precarious but it wouldn't really matter. It would have no revenue, no costs, no bank account, nothing, so it wouldn't be something that tax authorities would much care about.
When Y-Combinator comes along, you'd sell them shares in Startup Inc.
When Startup GmbH starts making more than 1M, then Startup Inc will start to handle money for the first time. At that point it becomes a relevant entity from the point of view of tax authorities, banks etc. But also: At that point there's a lot of money involved, you might have actual people and a physical presences across the globe, etc. so you'd just be like any other trustworthy multinational. (As opposed to like a hustler with big plans and nothing to show for it).
When Startup Inc start generating capital gains, they'd go to Max Mayer GmbH where they're initially tax-free (until they're actually returned by Max Mayer GmbH to Max Mayer).
But that's a pretty complicated setup! It may be what you'll wish you had done when your revenue actually takes off and/or investors want to start throwing money at you. But it'll be more expensive and cumbersome in terms of administrative overhead than if you had just done one GmbH and left the complicated bits for later. Remember: Most startups fail. Most Y-Combinator applicants do not get in. So it's not necessarily good advice to broadly give to people to always go for that structure from the outset.
[1] https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scheingesch%C3%A4ft https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scheingesch%C3%A4ft
- SkyAndSand 4y agoI couldn't agree more. The whole situation is extremely complicated, especially if founders from multiple countries become involved. If you had to do it again, how would you incorporate in the future (basically what I am trying to figure out here https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31620700 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31620700)?
- gyulai 4y ago* Set up Topexpress UG (haftungsbeschränkt) with €2k in capital but no more. This needs to exceed the cost for the notary, otherwise it is technically insolvent as soon as the notary performs his services on behalf of that entity. It is 100% owned by you, Max Mayer. * Set up "Topexpress UG (haftungsbeschränkt) & Co KG", a limited partnership (KG) with a limited partner who is you, Max Mayer, and a general partner who is "Topexpress UG (haftungesbeschränkt)". -- This is the entity through which you'll end up doing your day-to-day business. * Here, "Topexpress" is a non-descriptive name that could stand for anything. You might think you know what your company will do, what its product is, and what the product is called. But you probably don't. So use a funny company name generator and make sure not to overdo actually mentioning the name of your company, except where the law requires it. * If you anticipate that €100k per year will be more than enough for you to live on comfortably, then give your partnership a partnership agreement that says that profits below €100k go directly to the limited partner (you) who does all the work, and profits in excess of €100k go to the UG that, nominally, provides the capital. * This is a very nice setup: As long as your earnings stay below €100k, the entity is just like the kinds of entities that craftsmen use. You can flexibly take money out of the business, debiting your partnership account or put money into the business, crediting the partnership account. That's a great structure for when you don't yet know how much money your business needs, but you anticipate that you have enough money in the bank yourself to bankroll it initially. Conversely, when your private finances get tight but you know you have excess earnings lying around in the business you can take money out of the business easily. It's as easy as a bank wire, with no immediate paperwork required. Your accountant just does the tally at the end of the year. * Since this is pass-through taxation, it's also great for when you end up generating a loss. Say your business fails and you go back to work for someone else as an employee. You can then offset these losses against future earnings to reduce your future tax bill. Now, let's say that after countless stumbles and pivots (think "the lean startup") you've figured out "Super Product". It's already making €80k in earnings per year, and you anticipate a lot of growth and interest from investors. It is at this point, not earlier for reasons of admin overhead, and not later for tax reasons, that you do the following (while having professionals help you with this): * Incorporate Max Mayer GmbH, 100%-owned by Max Mayer. * Incorporate Super Product Inc in Caymen, 100%-owned by Max Mayer GmbH. * Draw up a sales contract between Max Mayer and Superproduct Inc wherein Max Mayer agrees to sell his ownership of Topexpress UG (haftungsbeschränkt) to Super Product Inc while simultaneously resigning as limited partner and renaming Topexpress UG (haftungsbeschränkt) to Super Product GmbH. This last piece will be a taxable event but, technically, "Topexpress UG (haftungsbeschränkt)" has never made any money. All the money has always been earned and taxed by Max Mayer. So you have a good basis to argue for a low valuation, possibly even zero, vis-a-vis the taxman who does his valuations based on rulebooks and laws, rather than how a sane business person would value a business. Getting that tax bill will give you a level of certainty that the taxman won't later find you holding a pile of money too big to ignore and retroactively try to tax you on it based on the fact that you tried to dodge the tax at the time when the taxable event actually happened. After the transaction is through, you have a clean structure, namely all the Germans do business with Super Product GmbH (the legal successor of the entity they have been doing business with all aong), you have the Cayman Corp for doing business with investors and international players, and you have your alter ego holding that can collect capital gains while deferring the tax liability.